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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I just wanted to clarify that. I want to suspend the meeting for ten minutes. We will return just after 11:00 a.m.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The next speaker is Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank the witnesses and the Deputy.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I wish to ask Mr. Mulvany about the budget deficit. In 2022 it was €1.24 billion and at the end of 2023, it was €1.75 billion and could have perhaps exceeded that.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: That figure, however, will have exceeded it. As chief financial officer, could he see that figure being exceeded?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: What?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: It will be north of €500 million.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I know-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The reason I am asking is that if it exceeds that figure, I would have to take it that that could mean that it could be in excess of €1.75 billion.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I know that Mr. Mulvany does not have the accurate figure-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I know that.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I wish to ask the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Watt, about this matter. On carrying this figure forward, it seems to be increasing year on year. From the administrative and budgeting point of view, which is the job of the Department, is it the case that that figure will just keep getting rolled over? Is it the intention that a future government might deal with it? I do not...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: A new sum of €100 million has been allocated, as I understand it. If the demand exceeds that by a large amount, based on the figures we have seen today, we could be in a situation where we €0.4 billion or €0.5 billion could be added to that on top of what is there already by the end of the year.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I understand that. Population growth and inflation-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I will come to that in a minute.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I want to move on to the issue of agency staffing and overtime. In your opening statement you said that the workforce has increased by 26,000 since 2020 but yet the number of agency staff continues to increase year on year. Why is this happening? You said it is a puzzle that we have to unravel.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Nobody will deny that 26,000 is a substantial increase in staff.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The point is that if there are 26,000 more staff and the demand for, and cost of, agency workers is increasing, this should not be a puzzle. There has to be a rational explanation for this. Can Mr. Gloster tell me what is happening in the HSE to cause this situation? I understand that there are greater demands in that we have an increasing and ageing population. However, that does not...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I accept that. We received a piece of correspondence a few months ago from the HSE - I do not have it to hand so I will go from memory - that gave a picture of staffing in CHO 8. What stood out for me was that there were 30 to 35 more management-administration staff than what was required, whereas right across what I would term the front-line services, there are shortfalls. The CDNTs,...

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