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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: In view of the Bill's contents and how it covers Members of the Oireachtas, will the Minister give us background information when he is going through the various sections? The Bill dates from 2015, but its Second Stage was ordered for and read on 20 January 2016.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: Yes, if the Minister would.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: That would be helpful to members.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: Perfect.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: I understand that in order to deal with the Bill properly we have to go through each section. If the Deputy wishes we can deal with those sections, and we do not have to finish this Bill today.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: Because of what I consider to be the importance of the Bill, I do not believe we should rush it. Opposition members did not submit amendments to the Bill and in the course of this discussion with the Minister and his officials we may well find areas of agreement but also areas of disagreement that might need to be addressed by way of amendments. I suggest we do that. I understand we have...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: Amendments Nos. 1 to 10, inclusive, 12, 13, 16 to 19, inclusive, 23, 24, 31, 34 to 36, inclusive, 42, 43, 86 and 87 are related technical amendments and may be discussed together.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: In the main, all of these are technical amendments.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: For clarification, may I ask the Minister if the Standards in Public Office Commission will remain? There will be a person there known as the standards commissioner, who will be responsible for the implementation of the legislation. Is that right?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: What concerns me is that we are giving this person a considerable amount of power. He or she would have to be extremely well briefed on the role of councillors, for example, to take up Deputy Calleary's point, who are not familiar with completing all of these forms or the consequences of signing off on them, as we are here in this House. One is presented with all sorts of forms to complete...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: I will not labour it, but I would just like to underline the concern. Is it correct that consulting with the Department means consulting with the officials?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: It would be fair to clarify that no one is opposed to reasonable standards. It is just that we are all aware how long it takes to complete all these forms, maintain all the paperwork and then have it ready for the Houses of the Oireachtas should it be inspected. Many councillors are sent from pillar to post with all of these strategic policy committees, district meetings and so on. The...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: Members are reminded to switch their mobile phones off if they are on their desks. We are being told that there is interference.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: The question I have to put now is how stands the amendment. Is the amendment agreed?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: We have to dispose of the amendments first. We are on amendment No. 1 to section 2. Is the amendment agreed to?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: If I put the question on the amendment and it is agreed to and members have an unease or concern about the amendment, it sends a signal that we have agreed to that particular amendment when, in fact, there are concerns about it.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: We have not got there yet; we have to stick to these amendments.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: The Deputy can comment on it then.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: One could withdraw the amendments or support these amendments. That is the question. If the amendments are to be agreed as we go along, then those amendments will be presented to the House. If the Deputy is unhappy with the amendments, now is the time to state it so that the Minister can either be asked to withdraw them. We cannot have it two ways. That is my concern.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Committee Stage (6 Apr 2017)

John McGuinness: Yes. One can. In case it is read by other members that this was passed, it can be reintroduced on Report Stage.

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