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Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: ——at the drop of a hat and attend a meeting if that is agreed but a Government Deputy or Senator is much more constrained in what he or she can or cannot do.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I agree. I do not think we should be too idealistic about this. I will consider that point again. It is not that I want local committees to be dominated by public representatives who are Oireachtas Members; I did not want the end of the dual mandate to mean that nobody in these Houses would ever have experience of these committees or have any input in them. I will consider the matter further...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I find myself persuaded by amendment No. 51. It would be useful for these committees to have a function as organising committees. As the Senators who proposed this amendment have said, if a local political party convenes a meeting on a particular issue, one tends to wonder whether one should attend or not. Should I participate in this meeting or because I am not in that party hope that the...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: To put the matter in context, where a statute creates a duty one must look at its terms to decide whether failure to comply with the duty becomes actionable at the instance of a person who is aggrieved or suffers as a result. This is a conundrum about which law students learn at great length regarding tort. While there is a tort of breach of statutory duty, it only exists where the courts...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: One might ask what practical effect such a provision will have. It means whichever function is being performed by the local authority, whether by management or elected members, must be done in a manner which has regard to the reduction of criminality. If planning permission is refused because a local authority believes it would increase criminality in the area, that becomes a criterion to be...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: This amendment was proposed by the Labour Party. I commend Senator Ryan on his detailed knowledge of the Bill.The amendment is an improvement and I accept it.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: It is a great protection for a Garda Commissioner when he goes before an Oireachtas committee, perhaps the Committee of Public Accounts. When confronted with a question as to whether the policy of his Minister is right or wrong, he is in a position to say he is not entitled to respond and should not be asked to do so. That is a fair protection. The Garda Commissioner is bound to be truthful....

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Yes, but it would damage our relationship if I was to read criticism levelled at me by the Garda Commissioner in the newspapers. I would not dream of criticising him in public, unless we were in an extreme situation, neither would he dream of doing the same. However, if he genuinely disagreed with a policy enclosed in the strategy statement for the Garda Síochána at my behest, it would be...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I do not support the amendment. Currently, it is possible for a committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas to summon the Garda Commissioner to attend before it provided it is using its powers of compellability. The amendment seeks to provide that the Commissioner will be at the beck and call of any committee which resolves any afternoon to require him to attend.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The Commissioner is not immune to the compellability provisions provided they are duly complied with and the summons is relevant to him or his legal functions. It is a different matter to provide that he be required by a committee of either House to attend and give evidence on matters which it deems appropriate. The inclusion of such a provision would result in substantial interference with...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: That makes the Senator's amendment redundant.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Section 36, subsections (2) and (3) state: (2) The audit committee is to consist of the following persons, all of whom are to be appointed by the Garda Commissioner: (a) a Deputy Garda Commissioner; (b) one person nominated by the Minister; (c) not fewer than 3 other persons who have relevant skills and experience and none of whom is, or has ever been, a member of the Garda Síochána. (3)...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I certainly know where the Senator is coming from and which lobby he would have to go through. Senators Leyden and Cummins are auditioning for the HMV label in this respect.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I am not accepting the amendment.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The committee will consist of at least five persons. A minority of insiders will be represented, if one includes the Minister's nominee as a quasi-insider. The structure envisaged is one on which there will always be a majority of non-members of the Garda Síochána from which the chairperson will be selected.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The Garda Commissioner is the Accounting Officer and this committee's function is to advise the Garda Commissioner on financial matters relating to his or her functions, to report in writing to him or her and to provide the Minister with a copy of each report. If ordinary members of the Garda Síochána, however defined, were to be represented on the committee, it would have to be through...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: Senator Leyden is technically correct but that is as far as it will go.

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: In a sense the Senator is right as there is no obligation to publish the committee's reports. However, they will be available to the Comptroller and Auditor General, if he or she believes they contain matters that should be brought to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts. If every audit committee report into suspected malpractice was prepared on the basis that it had to be made...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: The internal auditing process may do spot-checks of various kinds. If the intention is to prevent fraud, misappropriation or misapplication of moneys, publishing how this is achieved will weaken the effectiveness of the audit committee rather than strengthening it. If the report states that 48 spot-checks were done on the collection of parking fines while none was done on gun licence fees,...

Seanad: Garda Síochána Bill 2004: Committee Stage (Resumed). (9 Dec 2004)

Michael McDowell: I do not see what the Oireachtas would do with that material. The Constitution provides for a Comptroller and Auditor General who will have access to all of the material. If it contains anything of interest, I have no doubt the Comptroller and Auditor General will draw it to the attention of the Committee of Public Accounts. If appropriate, it will come into the public domain in that context.

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