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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I understand the point made. A committee of inquiry may engage outside expertise to do the scoping work I referred to or to assist it in the preparation of its work. The Committee of Public Accounts, for example, engaged outside legal experts last year in preparing its report on a possible banking inquiry. It is not necessary to provide specifically for this in the Bill. I note that...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Within the inquiry system, it would be envisaged that there would be expertise available to the committee. If it was a health issue there would obviously be a health expert, while if it was a financial issue one might need a forensic cost accountant or whatever the required person was.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes. For example, I was a member of the Joint Committee on Health and Children. It was felt that in drawing up the report concerning the constitutional amendment on children, each party and political group on the committee should have legal advice available to it. The Oireachtas paid for a legal adviser to be available to each group. There is therefore ample scope for that. It goes back...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The committee of inquiry will obviously have that power. I was also a member of the Committee on Members' Interests and I remember that we also had legal advice. We did the inquiry concerning the former Deputy Foley and we had legal advice during that period. He was represented legally as well.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The appointment of investigators is a different concept. I do not think one can franchise the work of the Oireachtas itself. Looking at the amendment, subsection (6) refers to a person being interviewed pursuant to subsection (2) who may decline to answer any question or refuse a request by the inquiry to produce any document, and may terminate the interview at any time. Also, a person to...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 30: In page 58, line 3, to delete “Article 12.10 of the Constitution,”. Amendments Nos. 30 and 31 are technical amendments providing for a greater alignment of the provisions of the Bill with the constitutional provisions concerning the President. Reference to the compellability of the President has been removed from the Bill.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 31: In page 58, line 7, to delete “(a),”.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Deputy Donnelly has read out the new constitutional provision. Article 28.4.3° was inserted in the Constitution following the judgment of the Supreme Court in the Attorney General v. Hamilton case, deriving the principle of Cabinet confidentiality from the general principle of collective responsibility in Article 28.4.2°. Up to that point, there was an absolute prohibition on...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I have been involved in a number of tribunals of inquiry, including, for example, the tribunal on blood contamination. There is no issue with going through all the policy issues and what was done in a Department in relation to such matters. There would not be an issue either with regard to the issues the Chairman mentions. What is protected is Cabinet documentation and Cabinet discussions....

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No. Only in so far as-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: We cannot change the Constitution.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No. It is different from a tribunal of inquiry but certainly not in any way less robust, in my judgment. Nothing that is required will not be furnished by Ministers in relation to matters that are subject to inquiry. That is my view.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Most Ministers will answer questions very frankly.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: We see a difficulty where none will arise. Cabinet confidentiality is a privilege that must be invoked. There will be a very great reluctance to invoke it on the part of any Minister. We cannot interfere with it, however, because it is a constitutional provision.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It would draw more light upon the individual who did it.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It is not constitutionally permissible, unless the High Court makes a determination in accordance with the amended Article, for a member to say "This is what happened at Cabinet".

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That is simply to reflect the constitutional position.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The general view is that once the Cabinet has disposed of an issue, all the documentation that emerges from Cabinet is public.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That is a general prescription that any inquiry must deal with under the constraints of the Constitution.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Brendan Howlin: No; we need to lay out the ground rules to say this is what one cannot do. The scope that is not circumscribed here is huge and I have no difficulty with this.

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