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Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Let us be clear on this. Has the Minister for Health the power to overrule the generally accepted accounting principles, or is he or she giving the HSE an exemption to compliance in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Where is this stated?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is great. What page is that?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: It states:Claims under the Clinical Indemnity Scheme which are paid by the HSE, and administered by the State Claims Agency on the HSE’s behalf, are accounted for on a ‘pay as-you go’ basis. This does not comply with FRS 102 ‘Section 21 - Provisions and Contingencies’. Details of the amount recognised in the Statement of Revenue Income and Expenditure in...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: But a figure is not given.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: The phrase used there is "together with the actuarially estimated future liability attaching to this scheme at 31 December 2016, are set out in Note 11." It is also stated that "The financial statements are also prepared in accordance with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform Circular ... [and] the HSE financial statements are prepared in Euro and rounded to the nearest...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes, that is the page to which I refer.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes, it is there. By the way, this contingent liability of more than €1 billion is actually shown in the smallest print in the entire document.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: The report also states:The State Claims Agency's best current estimate of the ultimate cost of resolving each claim, includes all foreseeable costs such as settlement amounts, plantiff [sic] legal costs and defence costs such as fees payable to counsel, consultants etc. The estimated liability is revised on a regular basis in light of any new information received for example past trends in...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes, but it is the HSE's liability. The agency is only handling it on the HSE's behalf. It is the HSE's liability not that of the State Claims Agency, which is just the handling agent.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: It comes out of the Department of Health Vote. I put it to the Comptroller and Auditor General that it is all very well to read this in the notes and in the small print, but there is a liability of €2 billion that is not clearly shown in the financial statements.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is not on the balance sheet, and just because a Minister-----

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: There is no provision on the HSE balance sheet for the €2 billion that would have to be paid by the HSE. As Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, the fact that a Minister says that one need not show it is, in my view, just not good enough. This will need to be teased through with us. The Minister gives the exemption and the HSE is following his or her direction, From a...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is on page 149?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: It says, "In my opinion, the financial statements, which have been properly prepared under the accounting standards specified by the Minister for Health ...". Who is the Minister that specifies accounting standards? Please help us on this.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: Right.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: That qualification was made by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: We see that in lots of other accounts.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: In other words, that is in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, but he signs all of the other accounts that he audits in accordance with standards specified by the Minister. What other Ministers have specified other accounting standards that are not generally accepted internationally?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Seán Fleming: I do not think this is sufficiently or adequately prominent in the financial statements. I know that the Comptroller and Auditor General has referred to the Minister's accounting standards, but our job is not just to follow how the Minister says we should do our job. Anybody reading the accounts is entitled to assume they generally accord with international accounting standards. Leaving...

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