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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: I welcome Dr. McLoughlin, Mr. O'Brien and their staff. On the length of time it is taking to sort out the salary top-up issue, it appears there have been indications of unauthorised salaries through the HSE dating back to 2008. There are arguments that there was knowledge much earlier than this. Why is the matter unresolved? Why did the HSE not put pressure on the agencies to comply,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: I am staggered that Dr. McLoughlin only became aware of this issue in May 2012 because, according to my information, between February and October 2011 the Department of Health wrote to the HR department of the HSE on five occasions to establish the level of compliance by section 38 agencies. The HSE replied only to two of the five letters. Surely, alarm bells should have been going off....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: How did Dr. McLoughlin's predecessor react?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Why did the Department of Health not pursue the HSE when it did not reply to three of its five letters? When this was happening, the country was under huge pressure. We were all being asked to take pay cuts and I would have thought it was obvious that it would have greatly upset people to see that there were people who were not complying, particularly when they were on very senior salaries.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Can Mr. O'Brien throw any light on this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Why has this practice continued, given that the HSE wrote to them? Why are we still having to deal with this issue more than two years later? Surely the HSE could put a screw on any voluntary organisation getting funding from it. He who pays the piper is supposed to call the tune; therefore, the HSE was in a very strong position to ensure compliance on the part of all of the agencies it...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: If the HSE is not satisfied that a particular voluntary organisation is complying at this stage, what is it going to do?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Will the HSE withhold funding if they do not comply and are not straightforward about it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Does that mean the HSE will withhold funding?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Obviously, that would be the last step, but-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: If Mr. O'Brien takes the view that the HSE will not withhold funding, is he not of the view that if the HSE seriously intended to withhold funding, the voluntary organisations would fall into line?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Given that I worked for a section 38 institution, I acknowledge that a vast amount of good work is done by all of these organisations. Furthermore, this practice is damaging them and the entire charity sector. I support the calls made by others to continue to support charitable organisations. The Chairman has dealt with the issue of St. Vincent's University Hospital and the top-ups made....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Therefore, we do not have a clue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: I call on the hospital to be absolutely transparent. That is essential. We received correspondence yesterday listing the top-ups paid by various organisations. I presume all of these organisations receive most of their funding from the State in one way or another, while some receive voluntary funding also. Is the HSE in a position to state in the cases of the organisations which supplied...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: What did Dr. Smith say about St. Michael's House?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: The top five salaries are all over €100,000. They are all getting an externally funded salary also.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Does that mean voluntary funds which the organisation collected?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Again, it is another example of an organisation that needs to come clean with the public and give full information. Dr. McLoughlin said a compliance statement would be required from all section 38 organisations. Presumably, despite the difficulty in getting a straight answer from Mr. O'Brien, the HSE will insist that they comply.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Can we get an updated report on that, as Dr. McLoughlin gets it? I know I will be questioned on St. Michael's House tonight. I have to meet somebody about that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Robert Dowds: Is this similar to the CRC and Friends and Supporters of the CRC? Do we know how those boards are constituted?

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