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Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Is there anything new relating to time? Does anybody have concerns that they know about which they need to air now? Everything will be known in the future anyway so I am asking if there is anything that we need to know about now.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Is there anything new?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: I am not saying that.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Is there anything specific?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Deputy O'Connell and I have gone through this at the Joint Committee on Health.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: We know about those two risks. We have talked about them at the Joint Committee on Health and it has been publicly aired. I will open this up to Mr. Barry and Mr. Gunning but, pardon the pun, they have probably been interrogated on this enough. Does anybody else want to say anything publicly to Ireland that is not known, that people are not aware of, or any concerns that they need to air?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: I am sorry for interrupting but I am caught for time. We know all of that. It has been aired publicly. Does anyone have anything else? No. That is fine. I asked at last week's health committee meeting about additional claims for the project, so I presume Mr. Gunning or Mr. Barry will have an answer today. They outlined how just over €1 million to date has been paid in extra...

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: None of the claims is in Connolly.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: That is fair enough. I went into detail at the last meeting about the real issue, which is the design of the hospital and moving goalposts. That is where the costs are coming in. Anyone who really interrogates this document, particularly the most revealing pages - 26, 27 and 28 - which are about design, will see that. On the previous occasion, Mr. Barry and Mr. Gunning told me that the...

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Mr. Barry made a comment which I will have to follow up on. I did not on that day because I thought I would research it a bit more, which is the appropriate thing to do. He said that the design was almost agreed for the GMP but there were a few small things relating to the IFC. He might explain what the IFC is and the difference between that and the GMP.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: In layman's terms, is this a more detailed GMP?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: That is very well explained. When the GMP was signed off, the IFC was, give or take-----

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: I know. Did the IFC in any way retrospectively affect the GMP?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: If ever a question is going to be asked about this hospital, I believe that one is critical. It is the nub of this issue.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: There is a big difference between the IFC and GMP.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: The contractors have an opinion that there is a big difference between the IFC and GMP.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Okay. Mr. Barry does not agree with it.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: Okay, fair enough. On behalf of the taxpayer I hope Mr. Barry is right.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: On behalf of the taxpayer, I hope Mr. Barry is right but there is a credibility issue here. If it ends up being determined that the IFC cost was considerably away from the GMC, we will incur serious costs. In any project that would be correct, would it not?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Alan Kelly: I cannot correlate how, then, we ended up with a 63% uplift in payments to the design companies. According to this report, €27 million extra was paid to design companies, which is 63% more than what was agreed. In any correlation if we go from the GMP to the IFC cost - and I am sorry for all of the jargon but people who know this know what I am talking about and there are arguments...

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