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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: It was in the middle of the night.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: It was 5 a.m. when that was done. We saw the Bill at 10 p.m. and all Stages were concluded by 5 o'clock the following morning. That is the scrutiny it got.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I will continue on this theme because Mr. Moran is to come back to us with a response to some of the questions. I have a few further questions Mr. Moran might respond to as well. Who were the auditors for IBRC before it was liquidated? I am aware KPMG were the auditors of Irish Nationwide, which, obviously, makes up part of IBRC, but I cannot recall who were the auditors of IBRC. Mr....

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: There is little to argue if-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Yes, that has been stated. It is in one of them. I was not aware there was a second one. On that same point of the report that has been carried out into the cost of rescuing individual institutions, will the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, be included in that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I want to move onto a number of issues that we are scrutinising today and I to jump to one in particular. The Government provided €1.2 billion to Irish Water in 2017. There is the same issue here with oversight being one step removed because Irish Water was set up in the way it was. The Comptroller and Auditor General does not have a function in auditing and that is something that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: That is a lot of money. For the benefit of the committee the witnesses might outline the rationale for the various approaches adopted to funding Irish Water. We all know that a lot of money is required. Did Irish Water come to the Department? What is the priority that is set up? How does that work and how do we see that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Do we know how much has been refinanced?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: On oversight, do the witnesses have concerns that there is not the kind of scrutiny that would normally be afforded to a substantial amount of money?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Can I ask if the Comptroller and Auditor General would concur with that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I do not find it acceptable but that is my view.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Yes, it has to be.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I want to skip on to the Housing Finance Agency, HFA. The loans to the HFA have decreased each year between 2013 and 2017. The decrease in 2016 was €290 million. Why would that have happened? We require significant income. Is it off balance sheet? Is that where the move is? What is the reason for that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: When will Mr. Moran come back to me on it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: I want to know if that impacts on the ability of the Housing Finance Agency to deliver new housing stock. That is the kind of thinking that I want a response to.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: The Department will come back to me on that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: There is compensation and there are legal costs but there is quite a sizeable amount where there was zero compensation but there were legal costs amounting to €526,000 awarded. What did that relate to?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Was that the case in this particular case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Before I go to the national debt, I want to ask about the income tax which was 1.2%, or €236 million, below profile. This year the rate of unemployment is 4.6% and it was higher than that in 2017. Does the Department have an explanation of why it is below profile? Does it understand the nature of the workforce, for example? Is that impacting on the gig economy and the likes of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2017
Chapter 22 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 May 2019)

Catherine Murphy: Are people getting interest? Where can I go to get interest?

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