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Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: -----but the reality is that we can have all the debates we like and they can involve banter and humour but the serious question we must examine is whether we are on the right road.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: That is what I am talking about: whether we are on the right road, if the policies will work, if the ESM will work and if it will be a firewall. I do not believe it will be. I will finish on this point. Every single time Europe presents a solution, we end up with a new crisis. This week's summit is another crisis summit. I am sure there will be discussion of more steps that must be taken...

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: I do not think those figures are right. The Senator needs a calculator.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: It has gone up in recent weeks, as the Senator might have noticed.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: After the referendum.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: That is not what I said. The Senator should not misrepresent what I said.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: It is not an ideal situation. There are times when one needs to borrow. The Senator should have listened to what I said.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: Incorrectly.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: The Minister of State was given plenty of latitude. He raised a number of points which I will take the opportunity to reply to. Will he take the oppoprtunity to revert to me?

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: I will stick to the section. We are on Committee Stage and the Acting Chairman should relax. There is no panic. We have until 2.30 p.m.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: The Minister of State mentioned fantasy economics. The provision in section 3, to the effect that we must put €11 billion of borrowed money into a fund when we will probably need to draw down more than that amount, is fantasy economics. For many years and possibly since before 2007, the parties that share an economic consensus - Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party - have called...

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: With respect, Labour's leader, the Tánaiste, made the same point in the Dáil recently. Is it not interesting that these three parties, which have been in government for God knows how many years, including the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government, started the economic crash and are sustaining this situation?

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: None of that had to do with my party or our policies.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: Senator Gilroy and the Minister of State should do the same.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: The Minister of State made a point about high earners and asked about where the money would come from. Recently, a Central Statistics Office, CSO, report showed that the disposable income of the top 10% of earners in this State increased last year whereas everyone else's decreased. This tells me that there is scope for people at the top to pay more. The mobility of wealthy people's capital...

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: When the Minister of State makes accusations, I take the opportunity to respond.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: The Minister of State referred to progressive taxation. The Government is moving away from direct taxation towards indirect taxation. It will introduce property and water taxes, neither of which will be progressive.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: I will repeat my point. It will be my last contribution on this section, as our debate on the next section will be important. The only question of relevance or significance is whether the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, will work and whether the road we are on is the right one. We can attack political parties' policies and describe them as fantasies because that is what the Minister of...

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: It is difficult to follow the previous contribution.

Seanad: European Stability Mechanism Bill 2012: Committee and Remaining Stages (27 Jun 2012)

David Cullinane: It was all relevant but what Senator Norris said is correct. The context of this discussion, and the way in which we are being presented with this treaty, and inviolability that goes with it for the fund itself and the members of the board, is that people are fearful of a lack of democracy, scrutiny and oversight in Europe. They know these concepts created some of the problems we have and...

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