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Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Mr. McCarthy said the average debt is at a very low level compared to where it was. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Can I make a point to you?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Debt is not always a bad thing; I know Mr. McCarthy knows that. However, we have reached a situation in this country where people, who have attained an education up to level 9 on the national framework of qualifications, NFQ, and are working in jobs where they are paid in excess of €50,000 and have a possible joint household income of around €100,000, cannot buy in Dublin.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Mr. McCarthy was kind of saying low debt was a good thing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: But what are we going to do about it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Stall the digger.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Through the Chair, please. I am asking my line of questions and when I want an answer, I will ask Mr. McCarthy for it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Hang on. I wish to make this important point. We have reached a situation where the availability of rental property in Dublin is at a record low. People who traditionally would easily have been able to buy could have done so but billions of euro are being wasted every year in rental payments that otherwise would allow them to purchase homes if the lending rules were done properly. I...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: But he was insinuating that through his comments.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: In response to that, there is a balance to be met-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: -----between 2008 levels and where we are now. In response to what Mr. McCarthy has just said, we are in an incredibly precarious position. People who want to work and live here are leaving this country because they cannot afford to buy, particularly in the greater Dublin area and Cork. It is so bad that I often wonder whether civil servants get it. The Secretary General may reply if he...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: I refer to the point Mr. McCarthy made about us being in a better position than where we were in 2008. The situation is different; it is not better.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: If that is Mr. McCarthy's view on it, God help us.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Okay, so the deposit requirement has increased. What has happened is that with the Central Bank rules-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Sorry, the borrowing capacity has increased.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Hang on a second. There are thousands of examples of young working professionals paying rents of more than €2,000 per month for a two-bedroom apartment in Dublin city. How are they expected to save for a deposit to buy a property? A two-bedroom apartment in many areas of the city costs well over €400,000, if it has an en suite bathroom, never mind a car parking space. How...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Gathering the deposit is the issue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: Mr. McCarthy may have but he has not answered my question. I asked him about the deposit.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: I will ask it again, if he wants me to be clear with him.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2021
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2021
Chapter 2 - Net Cost of Banking Stabilisation Measures
Chapter 22 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(17 Nov 2022)

James O'Connor: I will ask my question clearly. In relation to gathering a deposit, does Mr. McCarthy not accept that a person in Dublin, where the rents are as high as they are, is not in a position to gather money for a deposit to purchase a home unless he or she is on an extraordinarily high income, well in excess of €100,000 per year?

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