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Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Before Mr. O'Brien gets to that, I am asking, as part of the issues raised by the whistleblower, and I understand that whistleblower raised them publicly with Mr. O'Brien who was present at some conference or other when no action was being taken-----

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: -----whether the Health Service Executive, HSE, has undertaken a look-back at the structures at that time. Who, within those structures, were the individuals responsible for taking the actions? Has Mr. O'Brien identified how that structure was made up, the personnel who were in that structure and the information they knew?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Why would that not have happened? I am interested in it because if an employer got a complaint about something that happened within the system, they would probably go immediately to the person it referred to or the section in control of it. Mr. O'Brien is saying now that did not happen.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: I have to ask Mr. O'Brien again if it is a fact that right now, no effort has been made within the HSE to establish the structure of the section that would have been looking at this area within the south east, and the personnel involved.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Is it not incredible that Mr. O'Brien would not have wanted - not so much out of curiosity but to know the facts - the HSE, or that someone within the HSE would not have been instructed, to go back to the base of this complaint and find out what was involved?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Can Mr. McCarthy explain figure 20.7?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Excuse me but I wish to follow on from Deputy Connaughton's point. One can get tired of listening to the toing and froing that happens between Deputies but according to Mr. Mulvany's explanation, the HSE has failed to bring consultants into line. The Committee of Public Accounts has had this discussion with the HSE previously. The committee has heard all of the explanations about what is...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: I understand the predicament in which the HSE finds itself - these people are consultants and it is not easy to replace them - but if this was to happen anywhere else something would be done. Someone would lose their job. However, because the taxpayer is picking up the bill everyone is fine with just an explanation. I do not wish to be personal, Mr. Mulvany, and sometimes Mr. O'Brien takes...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Are you afraid of them?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: It is also a cost that the taxpayer is bearing.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: It is chasing money that the taxpayer is entitled to but some individual has decided not to play ball and sign off. He is causing the taxpayer further pain. He may be satisfying the pain of one taxpayer on his table but he is causing much pain for other taxpayers, who must cough up more money to keep the system going. What is the plan, Mr. O'Brien?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: The five biggest examples in annex A, relating to figures of approximately €25 million, €18 million, €29 million-----

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Is it not possible that with the bigger ones, we could get a specialised group to assist in clearing the backlog, albeit with a cost to the taxpayer? I know the HSE has been trying to do this directly in the hospital. Is there not some arrangement that can be made with individual consultants on the big end of the scale? The HSE could go to the hospital, take out the files and work through...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Never mind who is doing it well or who is doing it badly. Could we focus just on the examples that are doing it badly, perhaps the top five? They are making a mess of this and have been there for years. A crack team could be sent in to clean out the files, sort them, sign them and get them back so money can be collected. Is that not a reasonable action?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: "Kick ass", I think, is what they would say.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: I am sure the consultants would understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Otherwise, name them.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: But that helps. The unspeakable does help.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

John McGuinness: Deputies Dowds, Sean Fleming and I have some questions to ask but because Mr. O'Brien has been here since 10.30 a.m., I suggest there be a break until 2 p.m. or so for a cup of tea-----

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