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Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: To finish on that point, is Mr. McCarthy talking specifically about the tuck shops as opposed to the mess committees?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: At all?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I will finish on the mess issue. We will write to the Minister about it, if the committee agrees. The milk issue bears out the point I have raised. I was accused by the previous Secretary General of not having tested things in advance. We only raise issues if people raise them with us. The milk issue proves that it could happen, and indeed did happen in at least one instance. Some years...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: Did that change? Did that become the role of someone else?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: What about before that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: Were terms of reference not drawn up in conjunction with the internal audit unit and the external investigator?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: In what month of 2018 did that change?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I have read about disclosures with terms of reference relevant to March. I am raising them because the terms state that no finding is to be made on the merits or demerits of potential or possible criminal conduct. That excludes any determination by the independent investigator that this matter should go to An Garda Síochána. Is it correct that the Act itself prescribes that if...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: In at least one instance it was not. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: The previous Chair of the Committee on Public Accounts, Deputy John McGuinness, furnished a disclosure to the Department which alleged misappropriation or theft. That was not referred to the Garda.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I am trying to make that clear. The paper trail I have in front of me suggests that the internal audit unit and the external examiner agreed terms of reference which specifically excluded any consideration of the criminal issue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: The criminal issue was not referred to the Garda.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: This is the problem, is it not? Who makes the internal decision on whether or not to refer to An Garda Síochána? In this instance, a decision not to do so was obviously made. According to the paper trail, the terms of reference were drawn up by the internal audit unit and the relevant external investigator. The investigation was boxed off.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I have two more questions.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I have 20 questions which, with the permission of the committee, I will send in writing. We might get answers in writing. When Ms McPhillips was last here we were talking about external surveillance. There have been reports on that issue since then. A letter came back to us after a previous meeting. It was determined that sums of money were paid to two private security companies. The...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: This letter followed the Department's last appearance before the committee. I appreciate that there has been a change of personnel, but this is our first and only opportunity to ask this question. The letter from the then Secretary General said that one private company was paid €9,586.59 in 2011 and €8,641.68 in 2012. A second company was paid €10,774.12 in 2011. Ms...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I will put that in writing. I will conclude by saying that it is a matter of huge regret that my experience with at least two protected disclosures has shown that the system is designed to circle the wagons and the victims comes last.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: That is a matter for Ms McPhillips. She controls what she says, I control what I say. To me, the evidence is clear. Stonewalling is permitted under the rules. We are asking pertinent questions that relate to victims.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: Absolutely. They are in the public domain.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
Chapter 7 – Catering and Ancillary Services in Prisons
(10 Dec 2020)

Marc MacSharry: I am a messenger of the people, a Teachta Dála. I am not a protector of the system. I want to highlight things that are wrong with the system and help us weed them out if we can. Sadly, after 19 years my experience is that the system circles the wagons to the detriment of the victim on almost every occasion.

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