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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: That is semantics. There are questions about the wisdom of it. However, we are not going to agree on that. We did put some questions to the HSE and the Department in respect of several court cases regarding the cervical cancer scandal, a number of which were settled recently. Are there 40 cases before the courts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: The first claim we became aware of in the public domain was Vicky Phelan's. The majority of that claim, as was presented to the committee by the Secretary General of the Department of Health, came from the lab involved but €20,000 was paid for by the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: We know in the case of Emma Mhic Mhathúna that she got a €7.5 million settlement. We were told that there was an acceptance of liability by the HSE in respect of non-disclosure. Obviously, the main liability was with the lab. Is it still the case that the breakdown of who is responsible for what has not been worked out?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Was the acceptance of liability in Emma Mhic Mhathúna's case the first time in any of the court cases that the HSE accepted liability in respect of non-disclosure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: If it was €25,000 in the first case, will that be the benchmark for all other cases?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Was that the same logic used in Emma Mhic Mhathúna's settlement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: I am not asking Mr. Breen to do that because it would be unfair. In process terms, is it up to the court to decide who pays what share of the €7.5 million settlement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: There are three cases in which the HSE accepted liability for non-disclosure. Is it correct that there are monetary payments associated with these?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: How many women were not informed in total?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Three of these women have been somewhat compensated because they took court cases for non-disclosure. What about the rest of the women in question who have not been compensated yet, given we do not have class actions in this State? Is it the case that each of these women will have no choice but to take a court case to be compensated financially for what is now an acceptance of liability? If...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Leaving aside the uniqueness, the principle has been established that the HSE accepts liability in three court cases for non-disclosure. There are 35 active court cases and I imagine the principle will hold in all 35. There may be nuances, differences and complexities associated with each because of issues such as length of time, which is fine. That will determine the level of compensation...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: I accept that, but I stop Mr. Breen there because there are a number of elements to each claim. In each claim being brought the vast majority of any award relates to the failure of the laboratory.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: We all accept that, but what I am saying is that in the HSE's case, there is now an accepted liability for a failure to disclose information to the women concerned.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: In that circumstance is there anything stopping the State from stating it will compensate each of the women concerned? Notwithstanding whether they take cases, there is an established and accepted failure. Rather than wait for them to go through the courts which they are entitled to do and separate from the fact that they can take the laboratory to court, there is an established acceptance...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: There are 35 active cases and I imagine some compensation will be paid to the women involved for non-disclosure. The outstanding cases involve the difference between the 40 and the 221 women who were not informed. Some of them may have passed away, but if those who are still alive do not take court cases, they will never be compensated for the accepted liability or failure of the HSE. Is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: As such, they have to take cases.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: The Chairman cannot just come in and throw that comment in at the end. With respect, my line of questioning-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: Please bear with me. My line of questioning was to ask if the only option available to the women concerned was to take court cases. Everything Mr. Breen said in that regard indicated that the answer was yes, that was the only option. The redress scheme is completely different. My understanding of redress is that one looks at all of the other issues surrounding expenses and the provision...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: There are two options.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

David Cullinane: There are three options. Option 1 is that we allow all of the women concerned to take cases. Option 2 is that the HSE could decide to compensate all of the women concerned, irrespective of what redress scheme is put in place. The third option is establishing a redress scheme. Perhaps Mr. Breen might answer the question. Is it possible that a redress scheme established by the Government...

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