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Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: There will be 1,000 more public beds.

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: I will first address the issue of the NRB, which was also raised by Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. This has been the subject of litigation on the part of one individual. There is nothing in this legislation that affects a person's constitutional rights. Clearly, people have an opportunity to vindicate those rights, through the labour relations machinery of the State and also through the courts....

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: Yes. I reiterate some of the comments I made in my opening remarks on the legislation. When we were advised by the Attorney General on 26 October that we should bring forward, as a matter of urgency, legislation to put beyond doubt the legal status of the 19 bodies still in existence that had been established under the 1961 Act, there was an onus on me, as Minister, and my officials to do...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: Some of these are not for profit either.

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: The profits will be shared with public hospitals, so the €74 million forgone by insurers will be made up by the Exchequer. Money will also be made from leasing the land and, in some cases, through profit-sharing arrangements. The facilities in those hospitals will have to be made available at discounted prices to all patients. That is a very good deal from the point of view of access by...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: The purpose of this Bill is to put beyond legal doubt the 19 bodies and the statutory bodies drafted and enacted by various Ministers to establish those bodies. Once legislation is passed we cannot amend those statutory instruments. The Minister's approval is required for Beaumont Hospital to lease land. Beaumont Hospital and St. James's Hospital are in a different position from the...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: That is a fact. There are a good many private beds in Galway and——

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: ——there are proposals from doctors there to build an independent cancer centre on the grounds of Galway hospital. Many Deputies, however, are talking about public hospitals as if they were only accessible on the basis of medical need. The reality is that at the moment 20% of the beds, 100% funded by taxpayers, are only available to insured patients. I believe that is unfair.

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: I want a one for all system where the public facilities are accessed on the basis of medical need. These beds, in current terms raise for the hospitals €74 million from the insurers, and cost the hospitals €300 million——

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: ——in terms of staffing. It is a very bad deal for the public hospitals that these beds are subsidised to the tune of €226 million a year — to run and staff them — and that they are only available to some people. I do not believe that is fair or just. I want to make all the beds in public hospitals accessible on the basis of medical need, a one for all system. That has been at...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: The GP is a private provider. Dr. Reilly and I have had discussions on this in his former role. He was a fan of tax breaks to develop primary care——

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: ——because it makes sense. Unfortunately, there was an EU dimension and we could not proceed with this, but the reality is that these initiatives which will create 1,000 public beds for all the patients of this country will be made available at less than half the capital cost of doing it the traditional way. Furthermore, we shall be staffing them for €74 million, instead of the €300...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: No, we are leasing the land and we will get a return for the hospital from this. We shall also get a share of the profit. Some seek to justify income and others talk about profit. I was not aware that Fine Gael had a problem with profit. Earlier, Deputy Olivia Mitchell was complaining about co-location because she said we should keep the private beds in public hospitals, as she thought...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: I cannot understand a strategy that is in favour of private hospitals five miles away, but not if they are five minutes away. I want to come to the Attorney General's advice. If the Attorney General tells me I should not release his advice, I have to accept that. I am obliged to take his advice under the Constitution. I should be a very irresponsible Minister if I did not take the advice...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: If the Law Officer of the State tells me not to release the advice, that is what we should do as well. He confirmed what he said to me on the telephone on Thursday afternoon, in writing, and I have made that letter available, although, no doubt my motives will be suspect. Legal advisers to both Beaumont and St. James's Hospitals did not believe there was an issue. We felt we could allow...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: No, they will be leasing the land.

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: Does Deputy Reilly have a problem with someone making a profit? I presume the private nursing home in which he is involved is a for-profit arrangement. Irrespective of whether it is described as income or profit, I do not have a problem with it. Even if the House decided to legislate to prevent people from making a profit from private health care provision, it would be in breach of...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: General practitioners make a profit from their operations and I would not expect them to be in business if that were not the case. Bon Secours was the only not-for-profit operator selected but the hospital in question will not proceed and Bon Secours has withdrawn from the project. As a result, none of the eight proposals is in the not-for-profit category. It would be amazing news to learn...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: That is the reason it has increased from 37% to 53%. If one can get into the public hospital, funded by taxpayers, on a preferential basis because one has private health insurance, that too is an incentive. I understand the late Susie Long was told by a doctor's secretary that if she had private health insurance she would be seen next week, but, if not, she would have to go on the list. I...

Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages (18 Dec 2007)

Mary Harney: That is true and my ambition is to get them. That is why we need a new consultants contract. I cannot break the current contract. We can do it but we would have to compensate people. There are 2,000 people on an existing contract, one third of whom can practise in several places because they are category two doctors. Some 650 of them are in the Dublin area. We want a new contract. At...

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