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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Okay. Thereafter, at the end of the whole thing, one will be faced with a big legal bill because one has had legal representation. One goes to the commission, which does not apply any judgment but simply assigns a legal costs adjudicator to one.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Okay. That sounds fine.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Who decides that?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Okay, that sounds fine. While I will withdraw the amendment, this point applies to section 45 and I will speak to the section when it comes up.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: This point arose in respect of amendment No. 25 to section 44, which I tabled but it applies to section 45. I thank the Minister for the clarification regarding section 44. My concern is that the Oireachtas commission is not representative of the House. There is no representation for Sinn Féin or the Technical Group. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has 11 members of whom one...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Yes, I have a concern in that regard.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I move amendment No. 29: In page 57, before section 65, to insert the following new section:65.—(1) A committee may authorise such and so many persons as it may determine (referred to in this Act as “inquiry officers”) to perform the functions conferred on inquiry officers by this section. (2) Whenever so requested by a committee, an inquiry officer shall, for the purpose...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I am second-guessing Deputy Pringle to an extent. He is probably making a distinction between expert help and an inquiry. The proposed subsection (4) states: “An inquiry officer may request the production by a person of any document in the possession or control of the person that the officer considers relevant to his or her inquiry.” That is obviously a specific power over...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Perhaps we could consider something for Report Stage. Let us take the banking inquiry, for example. There are probably an awful lot of documents that would be useful for the committee to see. To help expedite that sort of inquiry, Deputy Pringle is suggesting that, rather than having the committee meet in a group of nine or 15 members who try to figure out the required documentation, one...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I appreciate that we can get an expert to give us a report, but the nuance at the heart of Deputy Pringle's suggestion is that that person would have additional powers and could demand documentation. Obviously, an expert hired by a committee could not do so. Perhaps the Minister could consider that point to see if it would be useful for Oireachtas inquiries.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Deputy Pringle chairs the Committee on Members' Interests, so perhaps it does not have that power as it is not a select committee. He may be seeking to ensure that the committee of inquiry will have the power that his committee does not have and which the select committees appear to have. That is the crux of it.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I will read out Deputy Pringle's note: As Chair of the Committee on Members' Interests, we cannot appoint investigators and this hinders us in investigating complaints. I feel this Bill should include that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: My amendments deal with the same issue. It might be useful, particularly for matters such as the banking inquiry, to be able to access Cabinet materials. I suppose the Attorney General would have an opinion on this, but we are certainly coming close to the constitutional article on this issue. Article 28.4.3° states: The confidentiality of discussions at meetings of the Government...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I do not understand how Cabinet confidentiality must be invoked if the default position is that one is not allowed talk about it. Perhaps I am misunderstanding it, but my understanding is that it does not have to be invoked because the Minister, as a member of Government, could not share information regardless of whether he wanted to. Therefore, it does not have to be invoked. It is the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: So the default position is that they cannot tell one anyway, rightly or wrongly. Therefore, the question is why this section is in here. As I read the constitutional section, it refers to the High Court determining that disclosure should be made by virtue of an overriding public interest pursuant to an application on that behalf by a tribunal appointed by a Government or a Minister of the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: Yes, and one can read it as pursuant to an application on that behalf by a tribunal appointed by the Government or a Minister of the Government on the authority of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: That is helpful. My final question is this: if the default position is clearly that a member of Government says he or she cannot answer a question, what is the point of section 68?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I have not seen it, but this is a fantastic point concerning the bank inquiry. There is documentation I would love to see that one could reasonably argue would really annoy the Germans.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I could, but it would not be accepted. Were the Minister to craft one, it would be accepted. Seriously, it is a fantastic point. Will the Minister take it under consideration?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Stephen Donnelly: I move amendment No. 37: In page 72, subsection (1)(b)(i), line 39, to delete “not”.What I am trying to achieve with these amendments is to allow civil servants to express an opinion on policy. For the future, for committees such as those we are discussing, it is very important. I appreciate it is long-standing, and presumably legal, practice that State employees do not give...

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