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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Could I ask Mr. McGarr to speak about a phrase he used: “gift it to a third party”? Does he not accept that the existing National Maternity Hospital, at Holles Street, will in the deal be given to the State and that the State can then sell it or put it to another use? I refer to the National Maternity Hospital itself contributing something to the-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: They are happy with the service and nobody is arguing the service provided by excellent clinicians, midwives and doctors-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Sorry, does Deputy Shortall have a question or she just-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I thank our guests for coming in. I direct my questions to Ms Murphy. People here have referred to her expertise. For the record, will she outline her position in Mason Hayes and Curran and her qualifications?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Would Ms Murphy classify these agreements as ones bound by Canon Law, as has been stated by previous witnesses?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: These agreements have been referred to as being labyrinthine in nature and complex in structure. Would Ms Murphy class them in that way, from her experience of being a partner in a commercial law firm?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: In Ms Murphy's experience, they are not overly weighty or voluminous.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: This provision is to ensure that the buildings on the site will be operated as a charity in future.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Regarding the scenario proposed earlier, involving a situation where one hospital started taking in an overflow of patients, does Ms Murphy think that would trigger this clause?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I thank Ms Murphy.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (12 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Okay. My colleague, Deputy Lahart, had started touching on the notion proffered earlier that perhaps seepage from St. Vincent's Hospital, when there is spare bed capacity, could somehow trigger the €850,000 annual rent clause. In Ms Murphy's professional opinion, would that trigger it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I wish to bring the conversation back to the point Mr. Menton ended on about patient care. I think Professor Walshe outlined the position of women seeking terminations within St. Vincent's currently. While we are discussing it here and it can be discussed in very abstract terms, I think Professor Walshe brought it back succinctly to what we are talking about. We are talking about people...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: To be clear, is Dr. Holian saying that if the freehold on the site in the middle of the campus were sold to the State, there would be an interference with that seamless care?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Some colleagues have touched on the mortgage issue and I have questions on that. Perhaps the two lawyers before us might outline how easy it would be to find a banker or another lender to grant a mortgage secured on a freehold that is subject to a 299-year lease that has a rent of €10 per year? Can they foresee a circumstance where any bank would lend in those circumstances?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: So it is an ancillary security.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Please briefly explain why it would not be seen as a good security.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Is Ms Reynolds saying that the bank would be unable to realise the full value of the freehold because of the long lease subject to a tenure of rent?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Is there anything to prevent clinicians or their colleagues, and I direct my question at the two clinicians, from prescribing contraception for family planning purposes in St. Vincent's currently?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: A lot of commentary has focused on the Minister, and a future Minister for Health, and his or her personal views on family planning, contraception and termination of pregnancy. Is there any way in which a future Minister for Health could interfere via the golden share or otherwise with clinical practice?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: New National Maternity Hospital: Discussion (Resumed) (16 May 2022)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I have more questions for the two clinicians. Can they envisage any mechanism either now or in the future whereby religious influence could be exerted upon clinicians? What would their reaction be if another person outside of the medical team expressed an opinion on their treatment plan?

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