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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It is a very big area and it is difficult to figure out the amount of money that has been announced and on what it has been spent. That entire area is embedded in that Department

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: -----and it is important for us to have it-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The cost of homelessness, apart from the human cost.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: There is a range of issues in that regard.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Good morning, gentlemen. There are no ladies present, which is something we tend to notice. I will ask brief questions and I would like succinct replies because I am limited on time. My question is addressed to the SCA. We had understood that the contingent liability was €2.6 billion, but the figure today is €2.7 billion and Mr. O'Kelly stated that it is between...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: We discovered during a previous engagement that the average legal cost per clinical claim is €40,000, which compares with €8,000 for general claims. We were trying to get to a position where there is monetary disclosure and mediated settlements in cases where people have been damaged by the State and have a legitimate claim in order that the State's costs State could be lowered...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: How many cases is the State Claims Agency handling currently?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: How many of those cases are being mediated?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The Taoiseach made a statement in the Dáil, and from what I understand there is another party to this and there is a liability beyond the State in regard to one of the laboratories. The Taoiseach had said that the mediation could be concluded and the State would then pursue the third party. Is that viable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Has Mr. Breen spoken to the HSE about cases that are likely to fall into the category where the laboratories are involved as a third party?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: What happens to the other cases outside of the 40 cases? Is it up to the individual to issue proceedings or will the HSE handle the cases by advising people of their rights and entitlements, and the supports that might be available to them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: If people do not do that, they do not come to the attention of the agency.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Some 87% of all the liabilities outstanding in 2016 were accounted for by Tusla and HSE. Some of the liabilities relate to catastrophic injuries at birth which account for a sizeable amount. If the SCA sees clusters or patterns where one hospital is subject to many claims, what does the agency do to get to the root of the problem?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I want to move through some of the other areas, specifically, the National Development Finance Agency and Carillion. Carillion did not engage in building work but essentially contracted out the work. The opening statement refers to the transfer of risk, which is the purpose of public private partnerships. According to the agency, PPPs have been very effective and the risk has been...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The fallout has predominantly been domestic in terms of the liquidation of Sammon and the impact on subcontractors and jobs. The red flag that was connected with Carillion and the health of the company prior to the contract being awarded is a significant issue. People rely on the State to carry out due diligence. Smaller companies further down the food chain are not in a position to do the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: No, that is not the point I was making. Mr. O'Kelly spoke earlier about the very tight margins Carillion was working to, which probably created exposure. These were also picked up down the food chain, if one likes, in terms of the domestic fallout. I will move on to another aspect of the accounts on non-effective expenditure, which relates to the IT system. A total of €853,000...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: The NTMA planned to spend a pile of money - €853,000 - on a system that was not provided. I am not really concerned about whether the company has a reputation. This will certainly damage its reputation because it was contracted to do something and did not do it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 23: Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency: Financial Statements 2017
(12 Jul 2018)

Catherine Murphy: There was a public cost from that.

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