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Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: I am aware of it but she might explain it for the record.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Why has there been the resistance to disclosing the salaries that are available to senior staff members? This was never about Ms Kerins's individual salary - that may have been her interpretation. It certainly was a matter of keen interest for the media and I understand that. It was probably a matter of keen interest because Ms Kerins was so reluctant to disclose it in the first place....

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Ms Kerins is at pains to describe the division of labour within the organisation, rightly or wrongly, and I may agree with that or I may not, but that is an objective fact. The logic then surely follows that the organisation would have an interest, and there is a public interest, in establishing where that money goes, including the level of salaries. Does Ms Kerins accept that?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: There is a pattern here with the Rehab organisation. That is reflected in an article in yesterday's Irish Independent, if I may discuss that for a moment, and it was touched upon to a degree by Deputy McDonald earlier, particularly around the necessity to cut pay packets and for wage moderation in the organisation in light of the situation in which the country found itself and in which...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Is Ms Kerins aware that reference was made in the article yesterday, and I would pleased if she would respond to it, to the locks having been changed in the finance department around that time? Was there any connection in terms of that particular dispute?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Yes. That is a reference made in the article. I am sure Ms Kerins has a position on that and that she is aware of it.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Changing locks in the finance department.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: So that is wrong?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: I wish to move on to the organisation's memorandum and articles of association and I want to refer to three of the articles, 33, 37.1 and 37.2. They generally refer to the fact that directors are explicitly forbidden from receiving remuneration from the organisation. That is a fact, reflected in the organisation's memorandum and articles of association - in articles 33, 37.1 and 37.2, to...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Is that not in direct conflict with the organisation's own memorandum and articles of association?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Can Ms Kerins confirm that is the case for this consultancy?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: I have a couple of further points in respect of Rehab's annual accounts in 2012. I believe Deputy O'Donnell also may have viewed its annual accounts, based on his line of questioning. All of the legal material related to the establishment of Rehab, the ongoing work of Rehab, as well as its memorandum and articles of association, all state clearly that it is a charitable organisation, which...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: It was Poland and the tax bill was €74,000.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: The organisation in its entirety, commercial and not-for-profit, if I can use that description, paid nothing in Ireland because it is not liable for corporation tax, as it is exempt under the Charities Act and the charities regulations. Is this not the case? It paid €74,000 in totality. I note the organisation made an operating surplus of €2.944 million in 2011 and...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: A sum of €35 million is on deposit in the bank and it is the case that no DIRT is paid by any organisation that is a registered charity. Is that not the case?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: Yes. I thank Ms Kerins for clearing that up. I refer to page 17 of the accounts and have a question regarding the closure of the defined benefit pension scheme. I am happy to give Ms Kerins a moment if she wishes to access that information. On page 17 of Rehab's 2012 accounts, reference is made to the defined benefits scheme being closed down in 2012. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: It was in 2012 and Ms Kerins put that on the record earlier. From an accounting point of view, there was a total gain to the company of €59 million. That is an accounting mechanism to reflect the wind-down of the defined benefit pension scheme. On page 17, there is a point in respect of a settlement obligation of €7 million in respect of the defined benefit scheme. I ask Ms...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: I am also interested to understand who benefited from that.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: If I may, I will ask a final question that is directed towards SOLAS but I am happy for Rehab representatives to answer it as well. Can Mr. O'Toole confirm my understanding that the unit cost, if I may put it like that, for trainees who are engaged in programmes with the National Learning Network on average is approximately €15,000? Alternatively, does it vary?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Gerald Nash: From reading some of the reports Mr. O'Toole has forwarded to the committee, I note it is often the case that participants in programmes drop out early. There is quite a high attrition rate. Is it then the case that the National Learning Network receives all of the money allocated for that year? Is there some retrenchment process or is some money returned if, for example, a trainee only...

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