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Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: There is also Rehab.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: With regard to the procurement that the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to in the context of the €2.2 billion, which is based on the sample, is that different altogether?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: That is HSE non-compliance. That is a sample that suggests we are possibly not getting value for money on €600 million worth, if the sample is indicative. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Is there any analysis? I know that, sometimes, something is needed immediately and it is perhaps not possible to tender. Is any analysis done of the companies where procurement is not being met or there are not proper tendering processes in regard to conflicts of interest? Has any analysis been done of those operators who are doing work or service providers or wholesalers where, for...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I get that. On the potential for conflicts of interest, while I appreciate there is no evidence, do we look for that?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Statutory, in this instance, because that is what I had moved to. It is more the Comptroller and Auditor General's role as opposed to the section 38s.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: While I appreciate there is no evidence, is there a mechanism that we search?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: It is purely a function of internal audit.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Does the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General focus on the sample in any way, for example, who owns the company or who are the directors?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I am not saying any of this is happening but, obviously, if there was a contract for €244,000 for contract cleaning, which is the figure for the Department of Health, to give an example, and I own the company and I am also at level 7 in the HSE, there would be a conflict of interest.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I know we can never say never. However, if it is a journey we are on in regard to the section 38s, the HSE too seems to be on a journey in terms of righting the wrongs. It needs to have a mechanism to ensure that, where a service, product or otherwise is being provided at the best possible value for money, there is no internal ownership that would leave a grubby complexion. As part of the...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I am not talking about relatives. The country is too small and everybody has a first cousin working somewhere. I am talking about situations where they might not have direct responsibility but they might have worked alongside the person in the health service who does have direct responsibility for 30 years and as no procurement process is being followed, therefore a company can be asked to...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: The only thing I would say about that-----

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Funnily enough, I said level 7. It does not necessarily have to be a level 8. The Garda Commissioner, Mr. Drew Harris, was before another committee last night and it is a bit like him saying that we have all the laws in place, and there is no need for a police force. Obviously, in practice, that does not work so I think we need something a little bit more robust than there being a policy...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Anecdotally, the case related to a particular constituent who was moved from a residential setting to a community setting. The person had a particular need and was moved to a different part of the country. The family is not happy with the location in which the person is housed and has been to'ing and fro'ing with the HSE to get that solved. I made an inquiry and got a nice response back...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I was in contact with the general manager of disability services in CH01. I do not wish to mention names, although I have permission from the relevant people whom I have not identified, so should they be identified I am covered. Perhaps Mr. Mulvany could check with the general manager of disability services in CH01. I specifically asked about the case. I accept the information I received...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I agree. I do not want to be sensationalist but the response I got was just a little bit silent in the sense that it said we are not renting the property and we engage X company to look after this person. If the specific needs demand such a high amount of money then so be it, but it was communicated to me that an obscene rent was being paid for the property and that the taxpayer was funding...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Right, okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I am sure they do. I am sure the company is above reproach. Perhaps I have been given false information. I just wanted to get clarification. It would not have arisen back that far. This happened in 2018 or even in early 2019. I will give the witnesses a copy of the response from their colleague and they can come back to me with a more detailed note because it would be a worry if that...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2018
2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Department of Health
Chapter 16 - Control of Private Patient Activity in Acute Public Hospitals
(27 Jun 2019)

Marc MacSharry: To be frank, if it is not bought by a section 39 organisation, a charity, the HSE or a service provider, Mr. Breslin can chalk it down that it will be bought by a housing developer that will want to capitalise on the Rosses Point view. My interest is in the care of the people and this piece of infrastructure, while it is not perfect and perhaps needs work, at the guide price, plus whatever...

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