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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Good morning. Obviously, members will only have a small amount of time each, so I will try to keep my questions brief. I would appreciate succinct responses so that we might cross the territory I wish to cover. Of the two matters I wish to focus on, the first is the strategic communications unit. Mr. Fraser might correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that it was set up at...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Was the warning that Mr. Fraser gave one that-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Mr. Fraser is quoted in a newspaper article. It reads: "Mr. Fraser has also met the unit's civil service staff to 'reinforce the importance' of other measures, taken by him at the outset, of 'maintaining our independence and political impartiality'."

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It is an article in the Irish Independentdated 23 March 2018. It contains those quotation marks.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Now that the unit is being wound down, will it be dismantled? What is the situation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Of this year.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: When the unit was being set up, a business case had to be made. In a reply to a letter from the clerk to the committee, reference No. PAC32-I-810, it-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: To Mr. Kieran Lenihan, clerk to the committee, from Mr. Robert Watt.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It is PAC32-I-810. The reply reads:By way of background, Government decided on 6thSeptember 2017, to establish the Strategic Communications Unit (SCU). Subsequently, a meeting was held at official level in my Department ... The business case fully reflected Government policy ... According to this, an amount of €5 million was sought. Given that the Government wanted to establish...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It did not require a business case.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: It was Government policy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I do not disagree with Mr. Fraser on that. When the extent of what it is is seen, there is a huge fragmentation as well. I do not believe I have seen anything that is convincing that would show how this unit would do that. Mr. Fraser might address that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: A lot of that would be behind the scenes stuff.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I do not doubt that better value for money can be gotten by consolidating. I get all of that but a lot of that is what is done behind the scenes. There was a perception that there was a change in how communications happened with this unit but it was not about how the change in communications happened from the point of view of rationalising. It was how things were politically communicated....

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: I would like to see more of what that approach should be in terms of value for money. There is no doubt that there is a case to be made on that. That function is a separate thing. I do not disagree that that is needed. I said that during some of the debate that occurred. For example, we saw a high profile campaign on the national development plan and the national planning framework. The...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: With the outcome.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Yes, I accept that and I have read Mr. Fraser's report just in case he thinks-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: Would analysis normally be done when something like that is being set up if the initiative came from the administrative side or the Civil Service side?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 2 - Department of An Taoiseach
(3 May 2018)

Catherine Murphy: So the benefit would not be robustly teased out.

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