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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Can we agree to write to the Department on Caranua? Agreed. On the second issue, we have gone over and back with the HSE for quite some time. It sent us the draft report but we are waiting for correspondence which its representatives said it would forward.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: We have asked for this several times so we have a number of options. We could write again or write to the director general of the HSE and put him on notice that if he does not give us the correspondence we will invite him to come back before us again to explain why.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I propose that we write to him outlining that, saying that at the earliest opportunity in January we will seek to have him back in unless he sends the correspondence he has agreed to send this committee. Is that agreed?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Since there are no other items arising regarding correspondence, we shall move on to No. 4, statements on accounts received since the last meeting. On the screen now are five accounts and statements received since the last meeting, on 7 December 2017. We can take them individually or simply note and agree them. Regarding University College Dublin, the document is dated 30 September 2016...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: This comes up time and again. It is an issue we have addressed in general terms as a committee. Every time it arises, we should certainly follow up with correspondence and ask for an explanation as why there is non-competitive procurement. It is important to do so. On both issues, particularly the second, we can stress the importance of an explanation and seek one. Is that agreed? The...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: We should note for clarity that the non-competitive procurement figure is €600,000 of €273 million, but it is still an issue.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: We will follow up with both colleges and seek a clear explanation. The remaining three accounts concern the Arts Council, Cavan and Monaghan Education and Training Board and Tipperary Education and Training Board. In respect of all three, there is a clear audit opinion. Can we note and agree these? Agreed. The draft work programme for 2018 is on the screen. I propose that we have a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Our meeting today is scheduled to deal with two matters: the Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 2016, chapter 3, on the cost of bank stabilisation measures at the end of 2016; and the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, liquidation. We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Finance: Mr. Des Carville, Assistant Secretary, head of the shareholding and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes, that is what I am proposing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I join previous speakers in expressing my unhappiness regarding the lack of response and the inability of the accounting officer to answer basic questions about the cost of the liquidation of IBRC. We need to come back to this in more general terms because there is a pattern here. References to commercial sensitivity and legal advice and the outsourcing of some work are creating a barrier...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay. Why would that preclude the Department from answering questions about costs?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I take it that the Department is going to defend something that it sees as not factually correct.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I would imagine that the Department will offer up a defence of itself, and the liquidators will defend themselves against claims that they feel do not stack up or are not factual. Would that be a fair assessment?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Is it fair from the Department's perspective?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. Carville will accept that facts are facts. The amount of money that the Department has spent on the liquidators to date is a fact. If that is a fact, why can that information not be given to us? It is not going to alter or change. It is a matter of fact.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. Carville cannot give us the amounts or the figures.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay. Will Mr. Carville give me the figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: I ask Mr. Carville to give me the overall figure. How much has been spent to date?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay. Can Mr. Carville tell me then-----

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