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Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Sure. I think it's generally accepted that the NAMA process over the course of 2010 took longer than expected, so to what extent were the delays in that process as a result of the, you know, incomplete security documentation, incomplete documentation generally, large collateral or differences in loan valuations? What type of difficulties did NAMA encounter when they went in and did the due...

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Okay. Overall, you are the supportive of the establishment of NAMA, is that correct?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: So do you agree ... disagree with the views expressed by Dr. Somers last week, who seemed to take the view that the banks knew where the bodies were buried, as he put it, and that they were best placed to collect the loans and that while you might have an overarching structure of NAMA, with a small number of people in the NTMA, that the actual workout of the loans would be best left to the...

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Do you think the loan-by-loan acquisition was the way to go?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Okay. And then over the course of 2009 and 2010 when there were various rounds of bank recapitalisation, what was the nature of your discussions with Government and your advice to Government in relation to recapitalising the financial institutions?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Senator O'Keeffe dealt fairly comprehensively with the issue of the view within the NTMA that it would have been better to nationalise Anglo even in September 2008. Was that the corporate view of the NTMA or was it just a view of individuals? Did you collectively arrive at a view which was then the NTMA view?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Okay. And then you said a while ago that it would be a matter of conjecture as to whether or not it would have made any difference to the ultimate outcome but can I ask your view? Would it have saved any money, for example, to nationalise Anglo in September 2008 as opposed to in January 2009, which is what subsequently happened? Would it have made any difference?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Okay. I suppose the question is nationalise in September '08 and then do what? What would have followed that in your thinking? And your preference was to nationalise Anglo, but what were the next steps then that would have been taken?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: I mean, the only way that money would be saved is if somebody didn't get paid - senior bondholders, depositors. How could some money have been saved?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Okay.

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Can I ask how it came about that the pension reserve fund, which had been built up over many years, was to be the source of recapitalisation for AIB and Bank of Ireland?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: No return

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Can I take you to your own witness booklet, Vol. 2 and page ... start with 59, just to show the cover page, and this is the bail-in strategy with holders of senior and subordinated debt, an NTMA paper dated 28 March 2011. So this is when the new Government were preparing the announcement on the banking strategy and the issue of burning senior bondholders as well as junior bondholders...

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Sure.

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: So can you explain how you arrived at a proposed haircut on senior bonds for AIB, EBS and Irish Life and Permanent of 60%; Bank of Ireland senior bonds, 45%; and then Anglo and Nationwide, 63%? How did you arrive at those figures?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Well, it says they're indicative only and are subject to negotiations with creditors-----

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: -----but then at the end, there is a clear recommendation from the NTMA to proceed. Well, the recommendation is: "... subject to a view being taken by Government [on page 64 at the bottom] on the potential implications of an adverse reaction from the external authorities and the implementation of an appropriate legal framework, immediate steps should be taken following the announcement of...

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Yes. And do you believe that the indicative figures there of burden-sharing to the tune of €9 billion with senior bondholders was a realistic proposition and that that could potentially have been achieved?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: And did the NTMA bring in some external assistance to help in the preparation of this? Can you recall who that was?

Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis: Nexus Phase (15 Jul 2015)

Michael McGrath: Okay.

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