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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I have limited time and a lot to cover.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Accepting that this happened and notwithstanding the broader nature of the case that is before the courts, what has the Department done about what Judge Earley was talking about?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Why are there still people coming forward to us?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: May I stop Mr. O'Driscoll there?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: The Irish Prison Service has had two protected disclosure policies then. There was one in 2015 and it updated this in 2018. Mr. O'Driscoll said this earlier. Preceding this was the 2007 Act, statutory instrument for prison rules. Is that not correct? Does that still exist?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: That is the 2007 Act, statutory instrument for prison rules.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Perhaps this will fill it in a bit. Under the 2007 Act, one must sign if one has a concern. However, in the Protected Disclosures Act and the Prison Service's policy, one can make an anonymous disclosure. What I want to know is-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Just one second. Under the 2007 Act, one would be disciplined if one went to a Minister first as opposed to the governor.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Exactly.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Which policy supersedes the other?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I agree, but when one has "you filthy rat" written on one's locker, something is wrong somewhere.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I appreciate that Ms McCaffrey is new to the job and I do not doubt her commitment to it. Her office is in Longford. There are 12 prisons. How can she be certain in terms of accountability as to what is going on inside the walls?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: If I have five or six levels and I am an ordinary section 5A prison officer, I would probably never get to meet Ms McCaffrey.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: If the governor of prison X found no contraband at all and in prison Y the governor found two tonnes of contraband - drugs, mobile phones, whatever - which governor would be held in a better light?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Would it be fair to say that if contraband is not found in a prison, its governor must run a tight ship.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Does it not stand to reason, though, that if I am the governor of a prison in which 40 mobile phones are found on three landings or whatever, Ms McCaffrey will be lifting the phone, asking, "What are you doing at the gates? Are you not going through the normal procedures that you are not detecting this stuff coming in?" It would reflect badly, would it not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Is there not a culture of governors not wanting too much found and, as a result, junior prison officers or people lower down the trough feeling a pressure not to find too much stuff because-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: -----they will look bad.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Why is this small number of people coming forward then? Do all who make protected disclosures have an axe to grind? Are they trying to get at someone above them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 21 - Prisons
(17 Jan 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I agree, and it is not really Ms McCaffrey's tenure I am talking about; it is the past. I have no doubt but that she will do all these things, but we are talking about the heretofore. I am not holding her responsible but I am asking her to look at this. Would it be the case that governors of prisons would permit mobile phones for certain prisoners on a particular landing in order to feed...

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