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Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I welcome Mr. Moran and his team. I will take up where he finished and thank all his staff and everybody in the Department who have been working during what has been a very challenging six or seven months at this stage. There is a lot of interest, as Mr. Moran knows, in the Apple escrow account and how it is managed. The sums of money involved are beyond people's imaginations. They are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I was talking about withholding tax.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I understand the expense that was incurred was in or around €2 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: That was in 2019 in respect of the withholding tax. It seems strange because this is essentially in respect of the payment of experts, legal and otherwise.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I would have imagined that one of those experts would have been able to say that tax must be paid on their fees.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: Part of the fear that people have is that because this fund is so large that sums of millions can be described as relatively small, pound signs will be shining on lots of the usual suspect, if you like. I wonder has Mr. Moran any fears because of the way in which the fund is managed. As he says, it is almost in the ether so nobody knows who is losing at the end of the day, whether it is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: Companies and individuals are paid directly out of the fund for a raft of different services. I understand that William Fry, for example, has received approximately €3 million. The current Attorney General had received €612,000 up to March of this year. Those are substantial sums of money. Could Mr. Moran give an indication of the type of work that would be conducted in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: Will Mr. Moran repeat that? Is that the cost to the Exchequer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I am trying to figure out what is the actual cost to the Exchequer. It may have no bearing on the Irish State, depending what happens with the escrow fund. It may have a substantial bearing if we were to lose the case, ironically. I note from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that €4.4 million is associated with costs to the State and other statutory bodies, apart from...

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I note an issue regarding staff allocation. The Minister had delegated a number of banking system functions to the NTMA. That delegation was revoked in August 2011. The NTMA banking unit has now been seconded to the Department of Finance. The staff allocation appears to still be attributed to the NTMA. Why is this the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: It is the same pot of money essentially.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: These are people who currently are working in the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: With regard to salary scales, would they earn the same as people in the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: But they are working in the Department of Finance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: Could there be a situation whereby two people doing the same work in the Department are on different salary scales?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: How many staff are we talking about in total?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: Does Mr. Moran not see a reason to regularise it in any way?

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: I do not have much time left but I want to touch on the issue of airline costs. Will Mr. Moran give a short background again as to what the dispute was about and the parties that received payments.

Public Accounts Committee: 2019 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2019
Chapter 17 - Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
(5 Nov 2020)

Matt Carthy: It was a €10 charge.

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