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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I understand that Ms McPhillips has a role to play in terms of answers. It is a privilege to sit on this committee and, each week, to hear of the decisions that were made. What was done under the guise of saving banks and the financial system led to huge problems that cost the taxpayer a huge amount, in addition to the bank bailout. This is a perfect example of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Absolutely. I know that. It arose from circumstances where banks overstretched and gave out money. We are not getting into that. It arose from the crisis.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I do not really accept that with respect to the Charities Regulator as the Act came into being in 2009.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Yes, and perhaps that is a reflection on the Government and not the Department. It was introduced in 2009 and there was plenty of warning. We needed a Charities Regulator in response to major problems.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: We did not implement it until 2014 and when we did, it was not implemented very well.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I am sticking specifically with the governance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Absolutely. I am not making a comment on this. We do not need to do that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Would the witness accept there was no governance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Would Ms McPhillips accept there was bad governance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Would Ms McPhillips accept there was a problem with governance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: All right. I will leave that as there are many more questions I want to ask. I will look at the Toland report, which was done the way a report should be carried out. It was set up by the former Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on 3 June and it reported on 11 July.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: That is breakneck speed. I acknowledge that it paid tribute to the Department, pointing out good elements and core strengths, which is very important. I accept those as they balance what comes afterwards. As one of my colleagues said earlier, this is quite hard-hitting. The report also indicates that time was short and there was no time to do comparatives.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I acknowledge the limitation. Notwithstanding all that, there are some very hard-hitting conclusions. Does the witness accept all those conclusions?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: That is okay. I am coming to the implementation. One suggestion might have saved much bother. The group offered services to make reviews on a regular basis. The witness is aware of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: It states that "the review group is prepared to meet twice yearly, if required by the Minister, over the next two years to review progress made in implementing these recommendations". I see it is the Minister's role but was it discussed in the Department that it was a good recommendation that this review group should meet twice yearly and make a review?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Good. What was determined?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: There is a specific reference to meeting twice yearly to review the progress in the implementation. Was that discussed in the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Was it a good suggestion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: It was very generous but it was not taken up. I am asking the witness. Was that because it was the Minister's role? Did the Department believe it was a good suggestion and tell the Minister it was a very good idea in view of the findings and recommendations?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 13 - Development of ICT Systems by the Department of Justice and Equality
Vote 24: Justice and Equality
(26 Apr 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I am specifically referring to the Toland group. The mental health strategy A Vision for Change is a good example of what I am referring to. It was brilliant ten years ago. It had an independent monitoring set-up, with two periods of three years. That was abolished because it was doing such a good job. An independent group was offering to monitor the recommendations because it took them...

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