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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I move amendment No. 29: In page 28, subsection (6)(b)(i), to delete lines 37 to 39 and substitute the following: "(II) the ring-fenced amount or, as the case may be, each ring-fenced amount shall thereupon become a non ring-fenced amount,".

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I move amendment No. 33: In page 29, subsection (6)(b)(ii), to delete lines 1 to 4 and substitute the following: "(II) the ring-fenced amount or, as the case may be, so much of each ring-fenced amount determined in accordance with paragraph (c) shall, to the extent of the excess of the relevant amount over €63,500 thereupon become a non ring-fenced amount.".

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I move amendment No. 35: In page 29, subsection (6), between lines 4 and 5, to insert the following:"(c) For the purposes of giving effect to paragraph (b)(ii)(II), where more than one vested PRSA has a ring-fenced amount the individual shall determine how much of each ring-fenced amount shall become a non ring-fenced amount.".

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: Applying the USC and PRSI in addition to an income tax charge would mean a rate of deduction of 52% where a USC of 7% and PRSI of 4% are added to the higher income tax rate of 41%. My purpose in providing access to AVC savings was with a view to enabling such access in a limited way while at the same time not incentivising it. Many of the representations I have received on this issue over...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: The Deputy would pay tax and the USC.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: No.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: On occupational pensions.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: The Deputy will recall the earlier amendment made to the Bill which provided that, depending on what on one's level of pension, the USC would be higher, for example, 7% rather than 4% if one was above the level of €65,000.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: Yes.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: The Deputy could argue it is an incentive but that is not the way I see it. Deciding to tax at the marginal rate of 41% is a disincentive. The Deputy can compare that with the rate a person would be charged on the pension subsequently and he can see there is an advantage in terms of the rates applied, but whether it is the 41% rate as against whatever it would be, for example, a 48% rate,...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: Let us talk our way through it. I do not have typical profiles of persons who contribute to additional voluntary contributions, AVCs, but from constituency experience, many of the people I come across who have AVCs are women whose career was interrupted because they spent some time looking after family or people who returned home after several years working abroad who wanted to enhance their...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: On the issue of what tax applies to contributions to pension funds, it is the marginal rate of tax. If someone who is a 20% taxpayer is putting in money, that is their relief. If someone is a 41% taxpayer, that is their relief. On the withdrawal of the AVCs, the same rules apply. If one is a standard rate taxpayer, one pays tax at the standard rate. If one is a 41% taxpayer, one pays...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I do not believe that AVCs will be accessed universally by people with debt problems or financial crises. Many of the funds performed well below expectations and people say: "I made a bad decision in putting these AVCs in." The Deputy should not be surprised to find people pull out AVCs to buy a new car. It will not be motivated simply by debt. Some of these under-performed and people...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I do not believe that is right either. Internationally, the tax policy on pensions is that one either taxes on the way in or the way out. If one gives tax relief at the marginal relief on the way in, one is entitled to take it back on the way out. That is the way things work. It is not a question of having an incentive or disincentive. Many people have been seeking this and many Deputies...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: One does not get relief on the way in either from PRSI or USC. One gets the marginal rate of 20% or 41%. We are applying the same to the AVC on the way out.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: That depends on the pension scheme. The level of contribution and the level of benefit in many pension schemes of which we would all be aware are not directly related. In all the public service schemes on an actuarial basis, the level of contribution would not have supported the level of pension until very recently. There would have been a divergence of a very wide margin on that. The...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: It is a measure introduced on the advice of the Revenue Commissioners to close a potential tax avoidance scheme. It does not have the wider implication that has already been brought to my attention. Section 17 deals only with trades dealing in or developing land; therefore, it has no implications for other trades or debt relief on mortgages. The purpose of the losses provisions in the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I repeat what I said to Deputy Michael McGrath. The technical note states, "It is not possible to live in a property as one's principal private residence and simultaneously hold it as trading stock of one's business. It is one or the other". That clarifies the point.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: I think the position is that if in the opinion of the Revenue Commissioners the transactions were motivated by tax avoidance concerns, they will be treated as benefit-in-kind.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: Finance Bill 2013: Committee Stage (6 Mar 2013)

Michael Noonan: Individuals only.

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