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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Is that actually what it says?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Language is very important. We are told that, "We will consider the request". It then goes on to say that it does normally provide anything other than the final report. The HSE is telling us to write to Deloitte, which will then come back and state it does not normally provide anything other than the final report. We will have to go through a process.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I just think it is couched.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Obviously there are significant issues. The accounts for one year cannot be concluded if the accounts for the year before have not been done. In terms of the statutory responsibility, what is the sanction for not fulfilling this? Being called in front of the Committee of Public Accounts is one thing, but what is the sanction for not having the accounts if it is a statutory responsibility?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: We are held to ransom by virtue of the fact there is not something to present here, because what has been presented to the Comptroller and Auditor General is not satisfactory, but is there an issue in that the same practice that has led to the difficulty will continue into the following year if we cannot hold the organisation accountable in a timely way?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I agree with much of that. A letter was to issue from the Committee of Public Accounts in recent weeks to the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, ETB, for the attention of all members of the board rather than the chairman. I talked to a board member who has not been made aware of it but board members are not being made aware of many things and it is being very controlled.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: We did. I remember the Chairman, in particular, saying that-----

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: -----this is to go to all members. Contacting the chair in a controlling environment is not necessarily always going to give us the answers. Public funding is involved in Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI. The CEO of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board just last week attended a conference in Abu Dhabi that was sponsored by ETBI. I am fascinated about where the money...

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Mr. O'Brien commissioned the report. Did he then devolve responsibility for engagement between Deloitte and the HSE to somebody else?

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Who was that?

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: She would not have had a responsibility at that point.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: On page 2 of his opening statement, Mr. O'Brien states that Deloitte exchanged draft documents with both parties. He then goes on to say that this is the norm and that it is reasonable to expect that both parties under review would have the opportunity to comment and to offer feedback for consideration. That happened with the HSE and with the service provider. The service provider was very...

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I ask that we make that request and that we tie it down to this particular net point. I have a further question. I noted the HSE's comment and I read the language carefully, which states:The [Public Accounts Committee] has not asked Deloitte for access to the draft report. If such a request came, we would consider the request, but it is not normal to provide access to anything other than...

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Finally, where would Deloitte have got the material for the table?

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The table that was omitted from the final report.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Did Deloitte construct the table from that exercise?

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It would be quite useful to get that information. If we cannot have the table then please supply us with the input and we can assemble it ourselves.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: For the avoidance of any doubt, could we make sure the correspondence I asked about, which Mr. O'Brien has agreed to provide, on the engagement between the HSE and Deloitte includes email correspondence?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The last time the HSE was before the committee, it confirmed funding had been allocated for the provision of financial management systems which had been largely absent. I raised the issue of how difficult it was to get information on the organisations in question compared to other organisations. Is that system up and running? Has it been designed? At what stage is it?

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