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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: In the letter, Mr. Culhane is saying he found John Barrett's statements to be very disturbing and alarming. These were statements that the issues would not go away, that the Comptroller and Auditor General's office should be informed, internal audit should be more informed and so on. When Ms O'Sullivan read that, what were her thoughts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It was not just a difference of opinion. He went on to say John Barrett "stated in his usual sweeping style that he did not believe him and [just] stopped short of calling the [acting] Deputy Commissioner a liar". He goes on to talk about Mr. Barrett's irrational behaviour.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: He went on to say that "Mr. Barrett is attempting to undermine my professional reputation and my record of achievement in An Garda Síochána".

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It was his view. Ms O'Sullivan responded to the CAO.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Is the Commissioner aware that Mr. Culhane also wrote to Mr. Niall Kelly, head of internal audit, on 13 October 2016? Has she seen a copy of that letter? We can get it up on the screen.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: Was the Commissioner aware of that letter before she came in?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It was dealt with quite extensively. We will tease out what the process would be when letters such as this are sent. I ask that it be brought up on screen. It is a letter dated 13 October 2016 sent from Mr. Culhane to Mr. Niall Kelly - Mr. Culhane would have been furnished with a copy of a draft internal audit report - and he writes "In your report you have failed to mention the action...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: He went on to state "You will note my commentary on page 15 in which you have made defamatory comments about my character and professional reputation." Therefore Mr. Culhane is accusing Mr. Kelly, the head of internal audit, of calling into question his character by making defamatory comments calling into question his professional reputation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: He goes on to state, "Consequently I am reserving the right to issue legal proceedings against you for defamation unless you amend your report accordingly." Mr. Niall Kelly was doing a body of work and had a draft report. The head of the finance directorate sent him a letter advising that he was considering legal proceedings and that he found Mr. Kelly's report misleading. He then went on...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: What are the Commissioner's views on that letter sent to internal audit? Does she regard it as an appropriate letter for the head of the finance directorate to send to the head of internal audit?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking the Commissioner to comment on the specific letter. It is more than that. Following the McGee report in 2008 a former Commissioner recommended that the finance directorate should take a more hands-on approach. There were five specific recommendations none of which were implemented, by the way, which raises more questions for the finance directorate. Here we have a draft report...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking the Commissioner whether she regards it as acceptable that the head of the finance directorate would threaten legal action against the head of internal audit and seek to influence his report. He asked him specifically to amend this report. He was very clear that if Mr. Kelly did not amend his draft report, he would take legal action against him.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It is not a submission. It is a legal threat.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: The Commissioner is not answering the question. I ask the Vice Chairman to direct the Commissioner to answer the question. Irrespective of whether it was a submission, it was a letter that the head of the finance directorate wrote to internal audit. In response to a previous Teachta, the Commissioner already said that she values and understands the importance of the work of internal audit...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I did not ask the Commissioner that. I asked if she finds that acceptable.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: It is a straightforward question. Does the Commissioner find it acceptable for the letter to state, "Consequently I am reserving the right to issue legal proceedings against you for defamation unless you amend your report accordingly"?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking the Commissioner for her opinion because the buck stops with her. We have everybody in here and she is in here today. This was one of the time periods in which she had responsibility where Mr. Kelly feels he was frustrated in his work. I put this to the Commissioner, as the Accounting Officer. Is she satisfied that it was appropriate for the head of the finance directorate to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: The Commissioner is not prepared to say it was wrong that the head of the finance directorate threatened legal action.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(20 Jun 2017)

David Cullinane: We have been presented with the minutes of the first steering group meeting. There is a reference to Mr. Culhane saying that he was shocked by what had just been said by Mr. Ken Ruane, who is head of legal, when Mr. Ruane said he would need to seek the advice of the Attorney General in respect of some issues. This is on page 3 of the letter. The secretariat has it. It states Mr. Culhane...

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