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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: -----what is the difference between a direct build and one by PPP?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: We need schools and we need a secondary school. What leads to the decision to build using a PPP? I understand there are factors such as Government policy, lack of money and a difficult economy, but in terms of value for money, which is cheaper?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: What does a secondary school cost to build, roughly? Can Mr. Ó Foghlú give me a range?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: €20.5 million for a school for 1,000 pupils. Is that the cost using PPP?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: What would a PPP cost for that over 25 years?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I understand where Mr. Ó Foghlú is coming from and that there is a policy here. I understand that the EU has put us in a situation with fiscal rules that things have to be shown off balance sheet and all sorts of magical accountancy rules that do not seem to be applied to direct public housing. However, if one is using a PPP, what is the cost of the school? What is paid to the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: So they are put into a bundle to facilitate the PPP?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: I suppose it was never an issue for banks. Money was never an issue when it came to Government policy, but it is an issue for the direct build of schools or the other things that are necessary for a civilised society. Returning to roads, I refer to the N17 to N18, Gort to Tuam, which I mention because it brings up issues at many levels. It was very much welcomed in Galway as having come...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: The five years for procurement took considerably longer.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: That took five years, for some of the reasons Mr. Kennedy has outlined.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: On page 52 it states:Although the European Commission’s investment in the Marguerite Fund falls [under the TEN-T regulation, which provides for the Court’s audit rights even in case the beneficiary is a private partner,] the Irish authorities refused to provide us the PSC and the tender dossier for the N17/18 motorway project, which were also not available at the Commission....

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: TII did not give them the documentation because the EU did not fund the scheme but gave equity to only a private company in the scheme.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: It is difficult for us when the audit tells us no documentation was handed over.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: And the witnesses will also have that time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: The debate should take place in the Dáil. Our role is to highlight the issues, as is the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General, so that proper facts and information can feed a debate in the Dáil which would lead to a proper policy. That is the difficulty. I do not blame the witnesses for that. There has been no backup for the policy. It was an ad hocreaction to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: It was €20 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: It costs €20 million to build a secondary school for 1,000 pupils. If we use that as an example, would the Department of Education and Skills show that as an upfront cost as opposed to being spread over the 25 years? Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: So the restriction on PPPs will be in terms of the capital budget for the Department in question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: To use the example of €20 million to build a school - which seems extraordinarily high but I am no expert so I will leave the fact alone for a moment - the developer is paid off over a 25-year period and then the school is handed back to the Department of Education and Skills. What happens then with maintenance? I presume that no school has come back yet.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 4 - Overview of Public Private Partnerships
(22 Mar 2018)

Catherine Connolly: Which five schools are due to come back?

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