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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Who was chairman of the audit committee during that period?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Who was chairman of the remuneration committee during that period?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: How many members of staff are in the internal audit section of the HSE?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Could there be ten or 20 members of staff there? Perhaps there are 50. I am asking for a rough figure.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: We will say there are 50 employees in the section. Do they prepare accounts for the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Where does the director of finance get his information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: There are 50 employees in the internal audit section of the HSE. How many are in the finance section?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Does that include both the audit section and the finance section?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: The point is that roughly 500 people work in this area. Nobody in that section, even when the board was there, raised the issue relating to arrangements for section 38 and 39 agencies. From the start of the HSE in 2005, some 500 people were employed to examine financial figures and nobody examined the section 38 and section 39 matters.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Nobody took control of this. The discussion this morning has seen a great deal of doublespeak and double standards. The issue of taking a radical approach was raised earlier but, when it comes to red circles, the HSE will not follow its own stance on the CRC. We have not received section 38 reports yet but it seems the salaries that are out of kilter with regard to section 38 will be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Did the audit committee raise a flag on these issues?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: Did the audit committee raise any issues on the CRC from 2005?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: If so, the HSE did nothing about it. That is what I find frustrating about this matter. The HSE knew that it was allocating substantial funds, but it did not follow the money. Now that this has been discovered on foot of hearings held by the committee, it is trying to apply salary scales retrospectively. At the same time and within its own organisation, it is willing to red circle these...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: If the audit committee or officials of the HSE had gone to the bother of finding out, matters would have been different. Accounting and audit committees and individual accountants and auditors do not assume, rather, I presume, they act on fact. Perhaps there is too much of a presumption on the part of the HSE, which is why this double standard is being applied all over the place.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: When he wrote back to the HSE on 17 November 2009, Mr. Peelo stated, "'We undertake that the CRC as a voluntary organisation will itself fund the excess of salaries concerned as identified by the HSE, with effect from the 1st of June, 2010." My belief is that the HSE knew about all of this all along and that it turned a blind eye to it. That is what the correspondence indicates to me....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: The HSE never inquired about the position. The way Ms McGuinness outlines it it appears that the organisation refused to divulge the relevant information. When did the HSE ask it to provide information and when did it refuse?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: It is not that the organisation did not divulge the information on the amount of money contained in the Friends and Supporters of the CRC fund, no one asked for it. There were millions of euro contained in the fund and no one inquired about it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: If one is allocating money to fund particular projects or extending a loan, surely one will inquire about how much money the person involved already has in his or her possession. The HSE should have inquired about where the money it had allocated was going and how much was contained in the Friends and Supporters of the CRC fund. There is an acknowledgement that there was a separate fund,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: It is stated there was access to separate funding.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(3 Jul 2014)

John McGuinness: On foot of the extent of the extra funds required to pay people, etc., the HSE would have known that the amounts involved were substantially greater than what might have been collected in buckets.

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