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Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: While there may be plenty of lawyers to take cases, as we all know, I have to follow the advice of the Attorney General. I have been advised that it would be improper for me to comment on the position of the Judiciary until the legislation is enacted. The legislation has not been enacted. It is subject to the legitimate debate and argument of the House. If it is a matter of contention...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: It will be implemented from 1 March on income accrued after that date. On the amendment tabled by Deputy Bruton, section 2(1) is the crucial section in the application of the Act. It applies to a public servant who is a member of a public service pension scheme, is entitled to a benefit under such a scheme, or receives a payment in lieu of membership in such a scheme. As I understand the...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I do not have to rely on section 10 — that is the crucial point — to exempt such persons because if they are not members of a pension scheme in the first place, section 2——

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I am sorry, I was thinking of the exemption. I was thinking of a different section.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Section 10, "Reduction of other payments", relates to professional services. It gives power to the Minister to make regulations. It is a precondition of the operation of section 10. The section does not relate to the contribution. It is a different section altogether, section which provides the foundation for the Government implementing the decision of the 8% reduction in professional fees.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Section 8 is the exemption section. I am sorry for confusing the matter.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: No. The precondition for the operation of section 9 is a regulation of the relevant Minister, the Minister for Health and Children, with my consent and the intention is not to apply through section 9 the operation of this contribution system to persons who are not entitled to a pension arrangement. The fundamental point is that under section 2 the status of the person must be such that he...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: They are captured. That is the real point of difference between us, Deputy Bruton is quite correct. The legislation is clear on the question of the home helps and persons who are not entitled to a pension. It is also clear on the question of non-pensionable payments, which his amendment would take outside the scope of the levy, and which include overtime and allowances. Such payments are a...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: They will pay the contribution. As I outlined yesterday evening in replying to the Second Stage debate, the cost of funding that pension is way in excess of any contribution that is made towards the pension by more recent members who have joined the force. The purpose of this levy is to make a contribution towards the eventual pension which is paid. Of course, the member is not in receipt...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I agree with Deputies Bruton and Barrett. This is an excellent suggestion. In fact, my Department is in the process of considering improvements to the presentation of the financial statements of Departments and offices. This raises complex issues and will require careful consideration. On pensions, however, the Department and I have decided to include an estimate of the accrued pension...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I accept it in spirit.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: We must build on the initial exercise of the total figure to look at specimens and in time break them up into general categories. I am not totally satisfied that doing this according to Department would be a good idea but one could take a substantial body of personnel in the public service, like the gardaí, the Defence Forces or teachers, and see if a separate computation could be made.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I thank the Deputy for raising the issue but, as I understand it, the Bill already provides for what the amendment seeks to achieve. The Bill provides for an amendment to the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 whereby income chargeable under Schedule E will be reduced by the amount of the deduction. It also provides, crucially, for amendments to regulation 41 of Statutory Instrument No. 559 of...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Section 15 deals with the issue, amending the Income Tax Act and the Income Tax (Employments) (Consolidated) Regulations 2001, which has the effect of including the contribution for social welfare purposes, which means the deduction will be disregarded in full before means from earnings are assessed for welfare purposes. I agree with the Deputy that it would not have been transparently...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: Yes. These core provisions in the 1997 Act and the Income Tax (Employments) (Consolidated) Regulations 2001 are the reference points for such schemes.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: I will have to get the Deputy to assist the commissioner in his investigations.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: There is an over-riding need to reduce public expenditure, of which public service pay is a significant element. That is why we are seeking to secure the maximum savings possible with the pension-related deduction. The principle behind it is that the deduction will apply to all persons who are members of public service pension schemes and entitled to benefits under such schemes or receive...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: The effect of the amendments would be to delete the table setting out the rates at which the deduction is to apply and remove the Minister's authority to make regulations to provide for the deduction. I appreciate the fact that the Deputy tabled the amendment to have a debate on the subject of rates. We do have a constitution, as Deputy Morgan is well aware; therefore, I am not going to...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: This Minister is not for tweaking and I have to perform major surgery all the time. On the question about the cost of the levy to a public servant earning €18,300 a year, if I were to accept one of the amendments which simply provided for an exemption under that level, it would increase the step effect at €18,300 to include not just the PRSI and the income tax but the pension...

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (25 Feb 2009)

Brian Lenihan Jnr: The Deputy should ask them.

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