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Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It took a battle that was settled in court to have the funding that was outstanding to a service provider provided to it. That provider was struggling because the amount of money that was provided was inadequate to provide fully for Grace's care without engaging in fund-raising or stretching itself to the point that services to others in its care were compromised. Is it fair to say that?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I do not for one minute disagree that the service provider in question provided the care. In actual fact, the care was provided despite the HSE, not thanks to the HSE. That is very obvious from the settlement. I have one last question for Mr. O'Brien on the Deloitte report. Has there been any request for aspects of the draft report to be removed or redacted?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Does Mr. O'Brien have a fixed date for when the report is going to be published?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I suggest that when that report is published, we will have to engage again here because then we will have something substantial to talk about.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I will return to the High Court case. We know the amount of the settlement with the service provider but there were other elements to the settlement.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: That would be quite useful. In addition to the settlement, what is the amount set aside for legal and professional fees?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Is that the total?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The accounts of the HSE were very prudent and it knew it was a case where there would be a cost. What has it provided for?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Does Mr. O'Brien have a ballpark indication of what the amount might be?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: On St. John of God, we probably all know the institutions in our own localities best and they provide an avenue for us to understand the wider context. Some of the top-ups paid in 2013 were for pensions. Can Mr. O'Brien say whether the HSE knew about them?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Is Mr. O'Brien looking at the relationship between the HSE and St. John of God as service provider?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Is that with a view to changing the relationship?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: There is a St. John of God facility in Celbridge which provides services to people with intellectual disabilities, and there have been cutbacks in service provision there, such as to transport and respite services and the fact only cold food is now provided to children in the day services. These services rely very heavily on fund-raising by parents and other supporters. When public...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: There is quite a sizeable difference between what can be provided by St. John of God and what can be provided by a comparable organisation like Stewart's in Palmerstown, such as in service levels and the activities afterwards. How does the HSE look at this kind of issue? Does it provide money in a block grant or on the basis of a service level agreement? Is it like with like? Why are...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Did the top-ups which were made in 2013, without the HSE's approval, come out of the HSE budget?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: They were from fund-raising.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Mr. O'Brien said he was looking at the relationship with St. John of God and that this could involve severing that relationship or changing service provider for those who currently get their services from St. John of God. Given that section 38 covers pension liabilities, would the HSE not look at direct provision of services as opposed to outsourcing them to the charitable sector?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It is the families who have members in the institution who are upset. They see their family members being subjected to direct and significant cutbacks while there has been a substantial and unauthorised payout to the senior people running the organisation, which has diminished fund-raising in the organisation.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I have a question on agency nurses, to pick up on a point made earlier. Mr. Mulvany said people making themselves available as agency nurses are perhaps not making themselves available to be directly employed. The HSE pays the agency a fee. Has any work been done on the amount paid to the nurse? Is it known? Obviously it varies from agency to agency. To what extent has the lower rate of...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE Financial Statements 2015 and 2016
Clarification of Matters Relating to Meeting of 2 February 2016
(15 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I want to go to another issue, which I think Mr. Mulvany referred to in his opening statement, on income, other than directly voted income, which comes from charges that are collected. Some of this has been in the news recently with regard to what happens when people present through accident and emergency departments. I had cause to write to the Minister six weeks ago and I received a reply...

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