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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I call Deputy Matt Carthy who has ten minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The Deputy’s time is up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: We are over time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I will let the Deputy back in later for a second time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Deputy, we are over time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I now call Deputy Dillon who has ten minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The Deputy has 30 seconds remaining.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: We have gone way over time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I thank the Deputy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: If members wish to speak a second time, they should indicate. I am mindful that we are running over time. I thank Mr. McKeon for attending and wish him a speedy recovery. What areas would the social protection investigation at RTÉ cover?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: How many workers would be included in that investigation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: Will Mr. McKeon repeat that figure, please?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I thank Mr. McKeon. Where it is found that workers were wrongly classified, the implication is that they would not have had the correct employer's PRSI paid for up to 20 years. In that case, is it the Department's position that those workers should retrospectively have those proper PRSI credits, class A credits, for example, reinstated?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: What about the loss to the Exchequer from the PRSI contribution? Would the employer be compelled, in all cases, to make good that loss to the Exchequer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: It is acknowledged that Revenue carried out an investigation into RTÉ. Did the Department of Social Protection have a role in that investigation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I will turn to local employment services for a moment. The Department says that it has advice from the Attorney General. Deputy Carthy pursued this, and the matter of the advice having to be contracted out. Will the midlands and Laois and Offaly be grouped together as one or will another county be brought in with them? Will it be contracted out on a two or three county basis?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: The sound was not great when Mr. McKeon said it will be done on a larger scale. To clarify, is he saying that it will include two or three counties? Will it be Laois, Offaly, and somewhere else?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: There is other legal advice on this. I know that Mr. McKeon is probably aware of this and has probably had it quoted to him over the past few weeks. There is a legal opinion that states that in layman's terms, if the contract was in place before 2014 and is not altered substantially, there is nothing to stop the Department from continuing with that. Many of these services have been in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: I do not think many would argue regarding governance and not having monitoring of contracts. Does Mr. McKeon accept that contracts for an indefinite period that were in place prior to the 2014 directive coming into play, could continue?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 9 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 10 - Management of Social Welfare Appeals
Chapter 11 - Controls Over the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
(9 Dec 2021)

Brian Stanley: There is other advice and legal opinion.

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