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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Are the members of the board akin to civil servants, in the sense that regardless of what they do wrong, it will be the Minister who is responsible? Is that what we are talking about?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am getting the impression - maybe this is the end of it - that essentially this is a committee established by a Minister, full stop.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: It is like a committee. I am just trying to pin it down. It is like a committee and of course it will do its best and conform to-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Sorry, Chairman. I want to know the structure of the organisation I am dealing with.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: They should not be here if they cannot answer the question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I must protest. This is the first time you and I have had to have this discussion. I listened to somebody talk for an hour. I have been talking for five minutes and you are telling me it is dragging on. I ask you not to go there. I would say the same to my own colleague if he was in the chair, if he stopped me after a few minutes. Perhaps some people do not understand the level-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: You can see the line I am opening up. I just want to know who is responsible for the members of the board. That is all I am asking. Who is legally responsible? Is it the Minister? I have no problem if I am told it is. However, I have not got that simple answer.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: The witnesses might send us a note, based on the statutory instrument.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General separately - he does not have to answer it today - to give us a note on how many bodies within our remit and within his remit are bodies corporate under the 1961 legislation, so that we can know the nature of an organisation. Are there many of these?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Does the Comptroller and Auditor General audit them all?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: An informal committee. There is the impairment issue with regard to €40 million of assets in the balance sheet at the end of 2012 in the accounts we are talking about. The board says in its report that it is looking at the impairment situation. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the uncertainty of that matter in his report. Does the board have an estimated figure at...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Will the Comptroller and Auditor General have to restate the 2012 accounts, or will he make the note-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: When the Comptroller and Auditor General comes to do the 2013 accounts, an asset that was worth €40 million will now be worth €6 million. For comparative purposes, will the Comptroller and Auditor General have to restate the 2012 accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: The accounts are completed on a going-concern basis. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated this. What guarantee did he have of the funding to guarantee the going concern?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Let us assume it will continue. But is that a good enough way to produce accounts - on the assumption that the Estimate next year will cover it? Normally, one would look for a little more reassurance than that to ensure the money will be there next year.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: After the year end-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: You waited until February 2014. I spotted that. You were safe for-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: On the going-concern accounting basis, I can understand why the Comptroller and Auditor General thinks that, because the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has time and again spoken about ring-fencing a portion of the proceeds of the privatisation of the National Lottery licence for this project. We have heard it a hundred times. I ask Mr. O'Brien from the Department of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am being told - which I would always have understood to be the case - that the funds from the proceeds of the National Lottery have gone into the Central Fund of the Exchequer. I would have thought they could not be anywhere else. Therefore, this euphemism of ring-fencing is more of a political thing. There is no ring-fenced area in the Cental Fund. Has the Comptroller and Auditor...

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