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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Business of Joint Committee (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: We will go into private session to consider some housekeeping matters.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: I welcome everyone to the Joint Committee on Health. Today, the committee will consider the management of waiting lists for hospital treatment and the insourcing and outsourcing of such treatment. To commence our consideration of this matter, from the HSE I welcome Mr. Bernard Gloster, chief executive; Ms Sandra Broderick, regional executive officer for HSE mid-west; Mr. Stephen Mulvany,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: We will now move to questions from members, operating from our speaking rota. We aim to take a five-minute break in about an hour's time. Each member will be given a speaking slot of ten minutes. We will move through the rota. Deputy Sherlock is currently in the Dáil so may miss her slot, but when she comes in I propose to take her at that point, if members are agreeable.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: I understand it takes time, but it is taking too much time. I wish to tease out some of the pieces on the employees acting as company directors and some of those numbers. The report states that 83 current or former health service staff were employees acting as directors in 148 companies involved in outsourcing. Of those, 58 were HSE and 25 were section 38 employees. A breakdown of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Are there issues in accessing data from the section 38s?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Will Mr. Gloster give us a breakdown of the locations of serving members of staff who are also acting as directors in these companies?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Does Mr. Gloster have a figure for CHI?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Yes, the number of employees who are acting as directors.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Mr. Gloster might get that figure if he can. The other piece I was unsure about when reading report was on page 8, where there is a reference to a derogation on a particular type of insourcing. Can Mr. Gloster explain that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: With regard to some of the clinical targets, the then Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, wrote to the HSE last year to request that outpatient clinical targets for individual consultants, departments and specialties be agreed. This was in the context of budget 2025 and the need to maximise productivity. Have these been actioned? The new dashboard shows the number of consultants and the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: The HSE is not doing the Minister's request for individual targets per consultant. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: The intention is to get there.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Does the HSE have a timeline of getting to individual targets for consultants?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: The Senator must allow the witnesses time to respond to the questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: I will say to all members that if we want adequate answers from the witnesses, we need to allow them time. I will not entertain complaints that we are not getting adequate answers if we do not allow enough time for the witnesses who we have invited before us to answer the questions. There is less than a minute left, Mr. Gloster.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: I thank Mr. Gloster. That is the time in that slot. We have one more slot before the break, so we will move to the next round, the next slot of which is Fianna Fáil. I call Senator Costello.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Yes. Senator-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Management of Hospital Waiting Lists and Insourcing and Outsourcing of Treatment: Discussion (2 Jul 2025)

Pádraig Rice: Senator Clonan, you are out of order. Your time is up. I did warn you that you were running out of time and you did not heed that warning. The next slot is a Fianna Fáil slot. You are taking other members' time and it is unacceptable.

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