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Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: Can I speak to the section?

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: On the section, I ask the Minister about double insolvencies. In a press release which accompanied the publication of the legislation the Minister stated: Historic double insolvencies will not be covered by this legislation [that is the Waterford Crystal case, among others] but are covered by the Insolvency Directive. This means that in those [past] cases, pensioners' entitlements will not...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: To clarify, what the Minister is saying is that the levy, which is intended to prop up double insolvency payments, will not apply? The funding for the Waterford Crystal workers and other historic double insolvencies will not be accessed from the new levy but rather it will be done out of general funding.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: My amendment, No. 4, makes substantially the same point. As the law stands, a company which is financially healthy, or whose parent company is financially healthy, can simply allow a pension fund to run down and close it. We propose that no company which is financially healthy should be allowed to close a defined benefit pension scheme under which people have legitimate expectations until...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I think the Minister accepted in her reply that there is a genuine problem. A company which is in a perfectly healthy financial state can decide tomorrow morning, for whatever reason - it might be subject to a takeover or it might want a temporary boost to the share price if it is a quoted company - to wind up the defined benefit pension scheme. I have received correspondence in the last...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I have a brief question.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: The Minister said that if she accepted this amendment, some of the companies that are operating defined benefit pension schemes might decide to get out of those schemes because they will face a liability.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: The legislation we are considering will become law in the next week or two. Does the Minister anticipate a rushed exit from defined benefit pension schemes between now and when the legislation is signed by the President? I do not see that happening somehow.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 4: In page 9, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:“9. The Principal Act is amended by inserting a new section 48A as follows: "48A.A solvent firm shall not be allowed to close a defined benefit pension scheme except where the scheme has reached a minimum 90 per cent funding standard.".".

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I also have had representations from the Senior Citizens Parliament and representatives of deferred pensioners on this matter. There seems to be a twofold problem here. First, pensioners had a right of audience to the industrial relations machinery of the State up until the 1970s. That right was removed on the basis that pensions in payment could not be reduced. Of course, that has now...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: On what the Minister said about a right of audience, I understand what trustees' obligations are under trust law, namely, that they have a fiduciary duty and they must consider a number of issues, including the interests of pensioners, but the way the law is structured means they must consider all those issues in isolation from the pensioners, after which they notify them of the result. In...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 13: In page 12, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:“(1AC) The €12,000 monetary threshold shall be reviewed on an annual basis by the Minister to take into account the annual increase in inflation.”.This is a very simple amendment which I assume we can deal with very quickly. The Minister mentioned that she had detailed consultations on...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I will withdraw my amendment on the basis of that undertaking.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 14: In page 12, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:“and the monetary thresholds mentioned at paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) shall be reviewed on an annual basis by the Minister to take into account the annual increase in inflation.”.

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 15: In page 12, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:“(1AD) The Pensions Board shall update its statutory guidance on the Principal Act for trustees upon the enactment of this Act.”,”.I realise that the pensions board regularly update the information for the guidance of trustees. I was advised that it might be a good idea to have that...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 16: In page 12, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:“(1AD) Any levy on pension schemes for insurance against insolvency shall not be applied to defined contribution pensions.”,”.The new levy, that is the 0.015% levy is not ringfenced to deal with what it is proposed to deal with in the Bill, namely where there is a shortfall in a double...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I hope the Minister's optimism is borne out and that we have few, if any, future double insolvencies. The legislation provides for such eventualities. In the event of a double insolvency the legislation provides that people's defined benefit entitlements up to a maximum of 50% will be financed by a levy which is levied on pensioners, of which there are only two types, namely, members of...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 17:In page 12, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:“(1AD) Trustees must outline in clear language the current and future prospects of their pension fund to beneficiaries on an annual basis.”,”.This amendment would oblige trustees to communicate people's entitlements and where they stand in clear language at the end of each year. I have...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I move amendment No. 18: In page 12, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:“(1AD) The annual management charge on a pension scheme shall not exceed 1 per cent of the pension fund.”,”.I tabled this amendment to highlight again the charges, as revealed by the Department's own study last year, and how hard they bear on small schemes in particular. The...

Committee on Education and Social Protection: Select Sub-Committee on Social Protection: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Dec 2013)

Willie O'Dea: I look forward to that and on that basis, I will withdraw the amendment.

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