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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Notwithstanding the existing reporting provisions in section 13 of the 1990 Act, the Minister for Finance is considering including a provision on Report Stage, which would be before the committee, requiring the agency to provide a breakdown of ISIF investments in its annual report. A number of members have views on this and we are trying to take them on board.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Although we are not addressing them in the legislation before the committee tonight, they will be addressed in a particular way on Report Stage.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Amendment No. 21 would mean the agency acting as NewERA would be able to develop proposals for investment in social housing in addition to the sectors of energy, water, communications and forestry already set out. The sectors I have listed are those in which the large commercial semi-State bodies on which NewERA advises operate and in which NewERA will have expertise. I note that the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: The amendment relates to the functions of NewERA; the ISIF is dealt with in a different section. We spoke on Second Stage about the role of the ISIF, what it could do and how it might become involved in the provision of social housing. The key point is that any investment by the investment fund must be commercial - in other words, the expenditure it makes cannot go on the State balance...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Infrastructural projects involve significant investment proposals. NewERA does have plans in this regard and can advise Ministers on issues such as broadband investment and so on. Any investment, particularly from the ISIF, must have a commercial outcome, but this does not exclude NewERA from working with the investment fund or making proposals to other parties which, because they have the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Section 22 does not cover social housing but the point-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: It comes under the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF. It would be possible if a plan could be put together and if partners could be found to do that in a commercial way.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: It is because it has to be off the Government balance sheet. In other words, it must be a commercial entity.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: The point is that NewERA will deal with the issues it is dealing with, and the ISIF is available for all ideas that will work in the economy that are commercial and that create jobs. It runs the gamut of every single Department. It is not set in stone. It can be done if one has an idea that stands up and works and that will add to the economy, be commercial and that will create jobs. We...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: The effect of this amendment would be require the agency in its NDFA function to comply with directions and orders issued by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform in addition to guidelines issued by the Minister. In this section and the following section, section 27, a verbal distinction is made between guidelines and instructions, which are issued by the Minister for Public...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: The Deputy has it there.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: It is 10.10 p.m. and it is clear that Deputy Doherty does not accept what I said. It is a verbal distinction. I am sorry if Deputy Doherty does not understand it.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: It might be helpful to point out that a guideline is a framework in which something will happen.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: I am just talking about the two words together. A verbal distinction is made between guidelines and instructions. I presume an instruction is something that is mandatory; that one must do. A guideline specifies that one must have regard to an issue and a decision must be within those parameters. A guideline as opposed to an instruction allows some flexibility on the outcome.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Deputy Doherty should get an English dictionary.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: I am advised that the words "order" and "instruction" are used because-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Is the Deputy's suggestion covered by section 26(1)(a)?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: Yes. I apologise. It is not excluded in the legislation.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: If it is helpful, I would like to respond to that by saying with respect that this is what the NDFA already does. If I am right, one of the targets the NDFA has had since its establishment in 2003 has been to work with schools by investing in bundles of contracts worth approximately €20 million. As I understand it, this provision reiterates what is in the existing legislation.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Finance: National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill 2014: Committee Stage (1 Jul 2014)

Fergus O'Dowd: That point was very well made on all sides in the Dáil and it has been made here again tonight. As I have said to the Deputy, I anticipate that a proposal will be made in that regard. The legislation as it presently stands does not exclude that. In other words, the intention is that it will happen. That is a fact. I think it is very significant that it would happen. I think...

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