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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Associate director level.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I know some people who work there. Some are partners - equity partners. There are associate partners and then there are all the other levels.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Okay. We have one liquidation specialist on the team. Would it be fair to say this is the biggest liquidation in the history of the State?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Okay, and we have one specialist on that. The Department has two whole-time equivalents and a solicitor full time on it, and Mr. Carville moves resources around as required.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I wonder what KPMG would charge out if it was doing it. I wonder how many partners, directors, senior directors it would use. I would say it would be billing us more than two whole-time equivalents, a solicitor and a specialist.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: It just does not inspire confidence. That is against the backdrop of the parliamentary questions. I said I would refer back to those. One of my parliamentary questions in September related to the frequency of meetings of the committee - these are the update committees. The answer stated that in 2016 there were eight such update meetings. At that stage in 2017 - up to 20 September - there...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: As a result, there were fewer meetings. I am trying to understand the whole process and procedure around liquidation. We move resources when they are required. We have one liquidation specialist, two whole-time equivalents and a solicitor. It is less important to have those formal update meetings in 2017 because the Department is not as busy with that issue as was the case in 2016. It...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: It sounds to me like reactive rather than proactive oversight.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Is there a Department of Finance process and are there procedures written down for the liquidation of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, IBRC, for example, whereby periodically one of the staff goes there and someone rings everybody in KPMG to ask these questions? Is there a checklist that is routinely checked or are we depending on parliamentary questions from me or Deputy Catherine...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: The Act does not provide for a committee of inspection and is very broad and vague.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I agree. I wish I had been more on top of this matter when I was a Member of the Seanad as I would definitely have taken issue with it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: No one appears to be using them. I do not want to delay on this matter, but I want to go further down the list of parliamentary questions. Mr. Carville called out for Deputy David Cullinane the hourly rate for partners. I want a breakdown of how many partners are being used and for how many hours to perform certain tasks. The Minister, or perhaps the witnesses on his behalf, wrote back to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: I disagree, which is why I would love to see the contract.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: If it is not reflected in the contract or anywhere else, why are we doing it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: If a freedom of information request was received in the Department for information on Mr. Carville's salary, he would be informed, but the Department would get the information out as quick as it could. However, we are not allowed to tell people how much we are paying for a product or service and how many hours it takes them to do it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Mine too, but I am saying I am not asked whether it would be all right; I am told that it is being sent. That is the way it should be, but Mr. Carville and I are not getting €222 million. The liquidators are and I think the public are entitled to know. The Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department of Finance have no role in the procurement of the joint special liquidators....

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Is Mr. Carville in a position, notwithstanding the case, to answer the parliamentary questions I asked in September and on which I touched earlier, or will he say it is still claimed the information is commercially sensitive and that he cannot tell me?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: Mr. Carville does not have to respect it. What is the definition of "commercially sensitive"? It is something, apparently, that we are allowing the contractor, KPMG, to determine and Mr. Carville is saying, "Fair enough."

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: It is a little like the promissory notes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 3 - Cost of Bank Stabilisation Measures as at the end of 2016
Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Liquidation
(14 Dec 2017)

Marc MacSharry: It is a little like the movie, "Dumb and Dumber".

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