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Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: Except welfare.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I do not want to delay the debate on the Bill in dealing with this amendment. Is the debate to be guillotined at 8.30 p.m.?

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I am conscious that Senator Barrett has a number of important amendments further down the list and that I have more or less hogged the debate but there are some issues I wish to raise. I will not talk for long on them. We have raised important issues. I agree with much of what the Minister said. I resent the implication that we will be bystanders.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: That is a natural human reaction one would find people have anywhere. The point being made in this amendment on outsourcing is that if the Minister is considering it he should let the Oireachtas know about it. The Minister said he has made himself available to the media. That is not acceptable. A Minister, first and foremost, is accountable to Dáil Éireann and he has not really been...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: There are no rules in this House as far as I see.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: It says in Standing Orders that you can do what you want.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I believe the Government can.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I move amendment No. 9: In page 15, before section 11, to insert the following new section: "10.—The Minister shall where the Minister for Finance proposes a measure to grant tax relief in order to achieve a specific policy objective in relation to the provision of a service or activity which is also funded through public expenditure prepare a statement of how this relief relates to public...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: It is not.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: It relates to administration between the two Departments.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I would like to put on the record that I will withdraw amendment No. 9a owing to time constraints.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: Again, owing to time constraints and to facilitate Senator Barrett who wishes to raise important issues I will withdraw amendment No. 13.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I only got a 2:1.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: Sections 21, 22 and 23 are part of one package. It would be opportune if the Minister could explain in general terms how this provision will work. The Minister may correct me if I am wrong but in my view, under section 22 - I am aware we are dealing with section 21 - statutory powers not listed in the Bill which relate to the functions of the Minister and certain sections of this Bill and...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I hope the Minister is right and that this issue will not arise. The Minister for Finance has so many functions that there could well be a citizen who has a particular bone to pick with the Department of Finance and does not know whose function it is. This matter would resolve itself if our earlier amendment - discussed when the Minister was not in the House - had been accepted. It sought...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I hope it never will be. I understand it deals with a matter of statutory interpretation in which the Taoiseach would have no role, nor could he overrule a court in its interpretation as to who had a particular function. That is not what is envisaged. Even if it were to be exercised, it is not a judicial interpretation of law. It is a matter of which of the two Ministers has...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I move amendment No. 20: In page 20, before section 23, but in Part 3, to insert the following new section: "23.—(1) If any doubt, question, or dispute arises between any Minister of the Government as to the Minister of the Government in whom any particular function is vested by virtue of this Act, such doubt, question, or dispute shall be determined by the Taoiseach. (2) Where the...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I compliment Senator Barrett on the amendments, in particular amendment No. 24. The reality is that if accurate work had been done in regard to what is set out in amendment No. 24 in the past ten to 20 years, we might not have some of the problems we face today. On that basis, it is very important to set out this type of prescriptive requirement in the legislation, requiring the Department...

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: I am not sure we could go that far.

Seanad: Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill 2011: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Remaining Stages (29 Jun 2011)

Thomas Byrne: If one is promoting value for money, one can do that in a local supermarket. Getting value for money is a different thing. This is why it is important to actually state what we are looking for. Senator Barrett is looking for "independently audited assessments of the current, capital, present and future expenditure". It would be fantastic if this were to happen because it never happened...

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