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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Would Mr. Moloney be kind enough to get back to the committee with a detailed analysis of what is going on and whether change will be brought about so that we can do our job properly, and also provide information on what format the proposed change will take?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: In July 2022, six Spanish construction firms were fined over €200 million by the Spanish regulator for colluding on bids for public-private contracts. Spain has now banned those companies from winning public contracts for the foreseeable future. Is it correct that five of those Spanish companies have won PPP contracts in Ireland?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Has the Department or the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, carried out an investigation into the contracts won by those companies?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Does the regulation allow the Department to exclude firms that have been found guilty?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: So when a decision has been made.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: A final decision has not been made but there was a finding and the companies have been fined €200 million. Is Mr. Moloney concerned that such companies are applying for PPP contracts in this State and about the problems that would arise? Was there an investigation into contracts that these companies had applied for? At the time, it was said these companies had colluded and met on a...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: I understand that but I am asking whether there were similarities here with what happened in Spain, where several companies were involved in a contract and then all of them, bar one, withdrew and the company that was left was awarded the contract. When the Department investigated, did similar circumstances arise in any of the contracts awarded?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: I ask Mr. Moloney to furnish the committee with an update, particularly on the matter.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: I would like to echo the sentiments expressed and the congratulations to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office for the invaluable work the do. It is a significant help to the committee. At times, I do not know how we would carry out our own work without it. I want to touch on the NTF and that ridiculous surplus of €1.37 billion. How long has that surplus been building?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: The Comptroller and Auditor General might have said that the surplus goes back to 2015. Would that be correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: At least that.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Dr. O'Reardon would have to agree that this is not a sustainable position. It is an outrageous amount of money to have sitting in a surplus, not used. Does Dr. O'Reardon agree?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Given the length of time that surplus has been building, will there be more in the surplus by the end of the year?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: It is building and building. Will Dr. O'Reardon perhaps outline a few big ideas the Department has had for putting the surplus to good use and what happened to those ideas?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: What are those?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: In that period, has the Department not come up with any big ideas? You could go to any village or town and you would see early school-leavers who are crying out for an apprenticeship or training of some kind. I note that in his opening statement, Dr. O'Reardon mentioned there is an improved economic and labour market situation. That is true to a certain extent, but, as I said, there are...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Has the Department put those proposals to the Government in the past eight or ten years?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Will Mr. Beausang briefly tell me about one of the big ideas that was put to the Government?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 45 - Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Financial Statements 2022: National Training Fund
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 19: National Training Fund
(23 Nov 2023)

Imelda Munster: Yes, we need to future-proof.

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