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Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2017 (31 Jan 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I know the Comptroller and Auditor General has not examined it-----

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2017 (31 Jan 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: If he was to examine it, I presume that one of the things he would look at would be the role of individuals, the board and its responsibilities given that it is a legislative responsibility and whether the process is robust enough. Why were the processes not robust enough to identify it long before they did?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2017 (31 Jan 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I find it astonishing that we are on track one month and then, four months later, we are €450 million over and above what we predicted. It seems to have snowballed in a very short period of time. One would have to question the controls and processes which were put in place.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2017 (31 Jan 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: What we do know is that it was over-budget by €200 million by late August. The reply to the parliamentary question in September did not indicate that.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2017 (31 Jan 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: It is important lessons are learned but it is unfortunate they were very costly lessons for the taxpayer.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: There are two points on which I want to touch. I want to go back to the issue of timing because there are so many dates and issues that people are becoming confused. I know that I certainly am. Therefore, I want to make sure we are all on the same page. Mr. Woods said he first became aware of the overrun in September 2018. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I am not interested in when the paper came to the board; I am interested in knowing when Mr. Woods first became aware of the overruns.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: That totally contradicts what we were told at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts last Thursday. We were told that the board had first become aware of the overrun in June 2018. Is Mr. Woods saying that is not correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: At the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts the answers were very specific. We were told that the overrun was €40 million in June, €200 million in August and €450 million in November.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Let us cut out the confusion about when reports were received and all of that. When, as a board member, did Mr. Woods first become aware that there was an overrun on the project?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: It was in 2017.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: That issue was resolved in terms of some savings having been achieved. I am counting the overrun of €60 million as a separate issue from-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Mr. Breslin was at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Does he recollect from that meeting that the board became aware of it in June 2018?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Surely we do not need to spend €450,000 to find out when people became aware of something. We have the individuals in the room here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: That is fair enough, but I cannot ask the chairman of the development board because he has resigned. I believe he was the person who said at the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: And the project director. We will get him back before the Committee of Public Accounts also. It was in June 2018 that those concerned first became aware of the issue. The actual wording was that we were on budget up to that point. Leaving aside the 2017 figure, we were told that we were on budget up until then. There had been no indication that there was an issue, but we are now hearing...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: I have one more question. The Chairman can note that I have not got answers to the questions I have asked. On the original tenders, is Mr. Breslin aware of the EU procurement guidelines on abnormally low tenders?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Mr. Breslin said earlier - I was watching on the monitor - that had he not gone with the lowest bidder, he could have ended up in the Four Courts.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: Under EU procurement law, there are guidelines on how abnormally low tenders should be dealt with by the contracting authority. The guidelines state abnormally low tenders can be questioned. Was there any questioning of the tender price, given that it was €131 million below the next lowest price?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Jonathan O'Brien: The development board was in charge of the procurement process.

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