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Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Let us keep the two separate for now. Reference pricing is about generic drugs.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Yes but that is only in cases where there is a generic drug of the same quality available.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: On the deal which the HSE did with the pharmaceutical companies in regard to the patented drugs that are not being dealt with in that fashion, has the HSE followed the track of the patents? The vast majority of those drugs have come off patent in the past two years and this has been reflected in the markets. A major concern for the IDA and Enterprise Ireland is the effect on employment of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Perhaps Mr. O'Brien would answer my question in regard to whether the HSE has tracked the patent cliff to see how it affects the deal which it did with the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: I am not happy with "fairly sure". Perhaps that could be confirmed to the committee at a later date. I would like to see the curve that has already occurred in relation to the patent cliff and the amount of savings made, which would illustrate whether or not that deal is in tact. Perhaps the witnesses would forward a note on that matter to the committee.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: When I was Minister of State with responsibility for trade and development, I sought to establish a depot in Shannon to deal with disasters. There is such a facility in Italy, which is the only one in Europe. Shannon has the capacity for all sorts of transport required to deal with tsunamis, earthquakes and other unexpected events throughout the world. One of the reasons cited for our not...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: It was only in 2012-13 that the HSE began to address the issue in a serious manner. Has the HSE ever considered bulk buying with our neighbours in, say, Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom, or with other countries of the European Union? Mr. O'Brien stated that we do not have the buying power of other countries like the United Kingdom and Spain. Could we not associate ourselves with...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Absolutely. Could we not have an all-Ireland approach to this? There is a need for a little creative thinking in that respect.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: It is hard to understand how linking up with the authorities in Northern Ireland would result in a major extra cost given it has been already stated that bulk buying is a major feature in the cost of the drugs that the HSE is purchasing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Is Mr. Swords saying that there are two different sets of regulations on the island of Ireland and that they are out of kilter with each other?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Before moving on to Europe, what is the position on the island of Ireland?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: We are taking all of that on board and I have no doubt that there have been improvements. However, given that Mr. O'Brien has identified bulk buying as a major factor and the fact that Ireland is too small in that context, could we not nominate the Northern Ireland or UK authorities to conduct it on our behalf, even if there are different regulations operating here? Is it not possible to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: On the sample of 100 payments to suppliers which were examined, the determination was that in 35% of them appropriate procurement processes had not been followed. Can the witnesses give the committee some indication as to whether they agree with that figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Was there a lack of communication on or awareness of the framework agreement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: If there was a framework agreement in place, it must have been agreed to. As such, there is no excuse for not being aware of it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: The figure in the sample showed that only six framework agreements were actually in place. One might as well not have had a framework agreement at all. There was a sample of 100.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: Is this what has been followed up since the sample was reviewed? Is that what Mr. Swords is saying?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: I am really confused. If there was a sample of 100 and it was found that 36% were in breach of the standard procurement process, no matter how much money one saved, one did not have an effective process in place.

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: It was further found that only 6% of those engaged knew anything abjout the framework agreements. No matter what, that is not an effective process. To address the actual issues involved, how could it happen that such a breach of the normal procurement process could take place?

Public Accounts Committee: 2013 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Chapter 14 - Procurement by the Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2013
(23 Apr 2015)

Joe Costello: It is not communication but process.

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