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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Watt said he offered his assistance. He should be telling the Secretary General that this will happen because the weight of public support is behind the Department in getting control of this and it should not be a question of whether the Secretary General feels like taking up Mr. Watt's offer. We are fully agreed on the need to achieve more savings generally. After Mr. Watt's last...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Watt sent us that letter on 12 November 2013. Could he send us an update? How much of that €305 million target was realised? Mr. Watt probably knows that figure, but could he send us the detail? We have just finished talking about IMF fiscal transparency. Mr. Watt abolished the review committee that independently verified savings, which we had under the Croke Park agreement....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: If a Department achieves a payroll reduction of €50 million at the end of the year, we have no way of knowing whether that is due to staff retirements or the Haddington Road agreement. There are specific issues in the Haddington Road agreement. Can Mr. Watt give us the breakdown of that €305 million for 2013, the payroll savings in those Departments that were due to the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Watt is making my point. He is explaining that it is complicated in each Department and that there are gross and net figures, savings and estimates. All the more reason for there to be an independent verification. When this committee does its report we should recommend that there be an independent verification mechanism. I would not even have to have this conversation if-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Does Mr. Watt not see any benefit in the independent verification of €1 billion in savings?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Was the independent verification process of the Croke Park agreement a waste of time and money then? I am missing something.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: I do not know what that means.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: That was all done by the Government before the Croke Park agreement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: That is not cost verification.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Through PeoplePoint the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will take responsibility for the processing of all the HR and pension and shared services. Is there an Accounting Officer for PeoplePoint? If so, will he or she be responsible for everything that happens if there is an issue with payrolls? For example, the Accounting Officer for the Department of Justice and Equality is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: In other words, Accounting Officers are responsible for the payroll in their Departments at the moment. Under the new arrangements two Accounting Officers will be responsible-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: ------Mr. Watt will issue a letter of assurance. We are, therefore, heading into a situation where more people will be accountable-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: I refer to the PPP issue, which Mr. Watt discussed with the committee last October when the current report had just been issued. I asked a number of questions, which I would like to revisit. According to the report, there were outstanding commitments amounting to €4.2 billion across the Department of Education and Skills, the Courts Service, the OPW and National Roads Authority but...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: I will not argue about the exact figure. Mr. Watt said €685 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Who is carrying that debt or has it been incurred?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: The annual charge?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: I assume that liability was on the State's balance sheet when they were run by local authorities. Will that be transferred from the State's balance sheet to Irish Water's now?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: How much has been taken off the national debt and handed to Irish Water? Does Mr. Watt know or does he need to come back to us?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Chapter 3 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 4 - Vote Accounting
Chapter 5 - Vote Budget Management
(3 Apr 2014)

Seán Fleming: Given that there was a large expenditure commitment, I would like to know if the national debt has been magicked down by €500 million. Mr. Watt will come back and tell us.

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