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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Does Professor Madden mean that she does not think that medical people's ethics should determine it? Would she not agree with me that it is the job of this committee to try to come to an agreement about what is ethical in each given situation and only on the basis of what we think is ethical to recommend a legal framework or indeed no change in the law? Is it not what we consider in our...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: What is right or wrong.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Let us all say we came to an agreement that we think this is unethical for all sorts of reasons as to its impact on society. We could not credibly say we all think this is unethical but nonetheless we recommend a change in the law because not everybody would agree with us.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I want to clarify. I got mixed up with my dates at the start and I suggested that New Zealand had introduced euthanasia in some form in 2017. It was only in 2021. In Victoria it was 2019. I suppose it goes to the point that this is all very early there. I would put it to our speakers that it is so recent that there is really no telling whether safeguards put in actually work, whereas if...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I just do not understand how Professor Madden could say it is just a small minority if she does not see a distinction between a person refusing treatment and a person being entitled to ask for help. I put it to both Professor Donnelly and Professor Madden, why do they believe we should just be talking about a small minority if they feel that people should have a right to have their lives ended?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: We can aim for it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Some are more equal than others.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I am not sure, but I think New Zealand might be 2017. Others may confirm whether I am accurate about that. Is Professor Jones's case that this is in countries where it is longer established?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Developing a Legal Framework for Assisted Dying: Discussion (11 Jul 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I want to probe further on that. I have heard some say that we are talking about the New Zealand or Victoria model, which has a narrow scope of eligibility, such as a terminal illness or a certain predicted period of life ban, to put it crudely. There is also the suggestion that the numbers do not always really go up, or if they do it is because there was a backlog waiting for legalisation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I know this is a difficult topic but if Professor Boer could give me an answer to my questions in two or three sentences given the limited time, I would be grateful. The first thing that struck me was that looking at the number of deaths taking place in the Netherlands, which is 5.2%, if you were to compare that with the Irish population and if we had the Dutch system, that might put us at...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: That is fine, I thank Professor Boer. He also mentioned incidences where euthanasia is carried out under the auspices of the GP, but he also mentioned that there are private companies involved. When that happens, because there is no doctor-patient relationship, who is taking the initiative there?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: What type of pressure is driving this increase of figures? Are we talking about pressure on doctors from society? There has been some discussion here of pressure on patients because of an absence of positive reassurance by relatives about them not being a burden. Are these issues presenting as reasons or are they driving the figures or the increases?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: It has been suggested that by legalising some kind of euthanasia or assisted suicide regime, it will drive down the number of suicides that would otherwise take place. Has the existence of assisted suicide or euthanasia in Netherlands impacted on the number of suicides in Holland?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Have I time for another question?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Returning to the question of minors, there has been some discussion of euthanasia of minors, people under 18 years, in Belgium and Holland. What is the story in the Netherlands?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Mr. Luley's citation of the European Court of Human Rights is problematic for the reason I have just said. The other thing is that he suggests that nonconsensual ending of life is what goes for the definition of killing but actually that goes for the definition of murder and manslaughter. I would have to put it to him that to some degree, by rejecting the use of the term "killing" even when...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: Can I just ask-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I have a couple of important, quick questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I am happy to wait until afterwards but, in fairness, there are questions to be asked and our speakers are available to us. I am happy to wait until the end but I ask that the discussion not be closed down while we have an opportunity-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Assisted Dying: Assisted Dying in Europe: Discussion (26 Sep 2023)

Rónán Mullen: I thank our guests again. If I may, I will address a couple of quick questions to Mr. Luley. I need to start by correcting one point. He refers in his submission to the European Court of Human Rights and he makes the suggestion that there is a human rights obligation on states to legislate for euthanasia or assisted suicide in some form. I think he needs to accept that of all issues it is...

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