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Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I question his eminence. That would be my view.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I accept that and, if possible, I withdraw that comment from the record. This is an extremely serious issue overall. If one considers the questions I will put to the HSE later, it is an amazingly convoluted method for channelling money. It goes through the midlands health board, from the office of health management, via the health board instructions into the national health and pension...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: The perception was created at this meeting in 2011 of difficulties in the relationship between SIPTU and the HSE audit team which resulted after that in numerous back and forth correspondence about issues of €190,000, two payments which Mr. O'Flynn mentioned in his presentation. When did the relationship with the HSE investigation sour and why?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: There were other moneys paid from the funds to many unions, all kinds of unions, including SIPTU. I think it was approximately €60,000.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was that one lump payment? What was the nature of that €68,000 and why was it refunded?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was that in accordance with the terms and objectives of the SKILL programme and the account?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Was any spending suspect?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: The report says the inspection team noted that payments were made by cheque with the full name of the fund account printed on the face of the cheque and signed by the fund administrator. Cheques given to individuals would have had SIPTU national health and levy fund printed on them.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: The members benefitting were heath workers.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: What was the largest payment out of the €68,000?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: Mr. O'Flynn can come back to us.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I thank Mr. O'Flynn.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I welcome Mr. O'Brien, Dr. McLoughlin and their officials to the meeting and thank them for attending. Mr. O'Brien and Dr. McLoughlin were not in place the last time the committee was asking questions on this topic. I am interested in their perspective as new officials in the Department of Health and the HSE. Having the Comptroller and Auditor General's report provides us with great...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I accept that point. Mr. O'Brien mentioned insufficient scrutiny and corporate governance. The question no auditor will ask is whether the insufficient scrutiny was deliberate or accidental. There are too many officials from different Departments involved who went on trips and benefited from the scheme. Documentary evidence for the sanctioning of funding is missing and there is a poor...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: The Vote changed from the Department of Health to the HSE in 2005. Much of the criticism of the spending in question has been to do with study trips to the United States and so on. Miraculously - or coincidentally - many of the trips happened around St. Patrick’s Day. In 2004, there was a trip to New York. In 2005, there were trips to Los Angeles and Australia. In 2006, New York....

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I accept that point regarding the future. However, Dr. McLoughlin stated in his opening statement that people dealt with Mr. Merrigan on a bona fides basis. They dealt with him on a bona fides basis by giving him cash without asking questions, not operating a governance structure or having an idea how it was spent. To me that does not come across as a bona fides basis for dealing with somebody.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: My questions are broader than the trips. It is about the general attitude to the funding.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I completely accept everything Dr. McLoughlin said. I am not questioning his bona fides or integrity for one second. However, as Secretary General of the Department of Health, does he not accept that his officials chose to go to the United States of America around St. Patrick’s Day to learn about health provision? If we are looking at health models appropriate to the Irish system, I...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: I accept that the Secretary General wants to be accountable and that he is doing everything he can to make sure it does not happen again. However, I remain concerned and am not convinced that the spirit of the law and regulations were followed by five trips to the US around St. Patrick's Day concerning health issues. Could Dr. McLoughlin talk about the point I mentioned, namely, that one of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Derek Nolan: So I am right on that?

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