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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (6 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Are we establishing a commission of investigation precisely because there is the lack of a means, in real time, to protect the interests of the taxpayer?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (6 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: I have a final question. Obviously Brown Rudnick had a full six months in which to look at putting together and understand the portfolio on behalf of PIMCO. Essentially, Brown Rudnick would have gone in, looked at the data and signed a non-disclosure agreement. It would have had the advantage of having all of that time to understand what the values of the various loans were. I accept the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Tackling Fuel Laundering
Chapter 15 - Taxpayer Compliance
2015 Revenue Accounts
(13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: I shall pick up on the same topic, to begin with. Obviously there was a high level of co-operation with designing the new fuel marker. The measure has assisted, eliminated or reduced a significant issue that has been damaging in a whole lot of different ways. In terms of that level of co-operation, we are moving into a different era in which the customs and excise element will be a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Tackling Fuel Laundering
Chapter 15 - Taxpayer Compliance
2015 Revenue Accounts
(13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: To go back to one of the other points raised on the general area of the Apple tax issue, the Revenue Commissioners look at it exclusively from tax law. I am concerned about a number of issues from this point of view. Who informs or questions Brussels? Is there any role for Revenue when it is asked to adjudicate on something, as was the case in 1991 and 2007? We are not isolated, we...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Tackling Fuel Laundering
Chapter 15 - Taxpayer Compliance
2015 Revenue Accounts
(13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: I am trying to get it in my head who has responsibility for considering such a scenario as outlined by the Commission and looking at it from the point of view of state aid. How would a Department know that, for example, a company was seeking a ruling from Revenue on the scenario we saw? Who would consider the other side of it? Does Revenue have any role in considering the other side or...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Tackling Fuel Laundering
Chapter 15 - Taxpayer Compliance
2015 Revenue Accounts
(13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: No revenue authority would want a situation in which very large amounts of tax are stateless. This is what happened and this is the central point. This is what the BEPS process is aimed at.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Tackling Fuel Laundering
Chapter 15 - Taxpayer Compliance
2015 Revenue Accounts
(13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Regarding the audit gap measurements on which Mr. Cody says Revenue will embark, what will its methodology be? There are obvious examples such as tobacco. No revenue is paid on some of the cigarettes that are imported, some of which are even more dangerous than regular cigarettes. At the top level, would Revenue look at it from the point of view of aggressive tax planning? Is that where...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Chapter 12 - Tackling Fuel Laundering
Chapter 15 - Taxpayer Compliance
2015 Revenue Accounts
(13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: The Revenue's systems will be evolving. How evolved are they? What are the plans for the audit gap measurements?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: To come back to corporate governance, in Mr. Rowntree's opening statement he said that NAMA as an organisation put in place a robust corporate governance framework. Is this method not at odds with the fact somebody on an advisory committee could operate for six debtors? Does this not show a flaw in corporate governance? Mr. Rowntree said he would not have sat on the committee.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: So it is a very strong conflict.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: In a good corporate governance situation, if those interests were declared would they not have almost automatically excluded the person on the basis of the conflict of interest?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: To go back to the point made and expand on it little, with reference to page 17 of the review of the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee for Finance and Personnel of the sale of NAMA properties in Northern Ireland and the paragraph referenced earlier, which states the committee also noted from the BBC Northern Ireland "Spotlight" programme that Mr. Brian Rowntree stated:...that the NIAC...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: What was the nature of the information that would have given somebody that commercial opportunity?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Were some of these properties with loans in NAMA? I presume they were.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Would it have been identified that they were properties with a NAMA loan attached?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: I want to refer to page 132 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. At the end of the page it states:With regard to the proposed acquisition of the NI Debtors Portfolio, PIMCO confirmed the following:They have not completed any due diligence or engaged directly with any NAMA debtors in this regard; PIMCO’s analysis was conducted by way of reverse engineering...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: I am looking at when the approach appears to have come almost packaged to NAMA via the two finance Ministers. It looks to me - if I am reading it correctly - as though there was a significant amount of information in advance of engagement with NAMA in putting together this portfolio. Would that be how Mr. Rowntree would read it?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Okay, was the university undertaking that-----

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (13 Oct 2016)

Catherine Murphy: Would the University of Ulster have valued the assets or would it have given an indication?

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