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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Ms O'Donoghue not have them to hand today? I am referring to the precise figure for jobseeker's allowance and jobseeker's benefit. What savings have been made under that heading to date? I would have expected Ms O'Donoghue to have that figure to hand.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Why not? I mean no disrespect, but I would have thought that figure would be in the normal report that Ms O'Donoghue received at the end of April.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Yes. Is it possible for Ms O'Donoghue to locate that figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: That is great. Thank you. What is the cost to the Department or to the Government of someone being on the live register? The maximum payment for an individual is €188 a week. What is the total cost to the Exchequer of someone being on the live register?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: On average.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Per annum?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: All these new schemes have been set up, so what is the cost of putting someone through these schemes? What is the average cost for an individual presenting to the Department of Social Protection to work through the schemes? Has Ms O'Donoghue looked at the cost of providing that service per individual?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: I asked about jobseeker's allowance and jobseeker's benefit, but what about the other expense headings? Are they ahead of or behind profile?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Okay. I want to move on to the Department's anti-fraud strategy. Ms O'Donoghue referred to the fact that the Department had just launched a new plan.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: It makes for welcome reading. I commend the work of the Intreo offices, which is very good. The fraud issue comes up every year. I welcome the fact that the Department has published a compliance and anti-fraud strategy for the period 2014-18. Some of it makes for interesting reading. The document refers to a particular case of an individual who had €400,000 on deposit and was in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Means-tested job seeker's assistance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Was the individual male or female?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: That particular person received an overpayment of €30,000. Over what period was that for?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: How would that have arisen? What is the process whereby someone applies for a jobseeker's allowance? Was this person on jobseeker's benefit prior to going on jobseeker's allowance or assistance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What link is there between the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners, through computer systems and so forth?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What was the value of fraud detected in 2012 and 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Am I correct in saying that in 2012 total overpayments amounted to €97 million; that the figure for client error was €36 million; fraud, €41 million; estate cases, €13 million; and departmental error, €7 million? The figure for client error was 37%; fraud, 42%; estate cases, 14%; and departmental error, 7%. In total, the figure for fraud amounted to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: A figure of 0.5% appears very low. What resources has the Department put into special investigation in this area?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is there an assistant secretary in charge of dealing with fraud?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What staffing structure is in place?

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