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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am referring to the award.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What was the average award last year from the 12 cases? Will Mr. Breen provide the total award, and we will divide it by 12?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am asking Mr. Breen to get those figures to help those of us in the Committee of Public Accounts. I am keen to see the average awards. We have heard of a case of €8 million and another of €4.5 million. I imagine there are smaller cases as well. In terms of the cases-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What are the largest awards of the cases that have not gone to court?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I note that the agency made payments last year of €147,000 for an average case. That includes approximately €60,000 of costs and €87,000 of the award itself. This means for every €1,000 of an award there is €670 in legal costs on top. We are finding that 40% of all the agency's payments are for legal costs. What are the highest sums the agency paid to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I have asked the question before. How much would it cost to take barristers on contract? Mr. Breen has referred to a reduced rate but the agency is paying a daily rate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Is there no mechanism within the State apparatus - I am directing this to the entire deputation at this stage - whereby instead of paying barristers up to €2,000 per day, which could amount to hundreds of thousands of euro per annum, the agency could get some of them on an annual contract? That way they could develop considerable expertise at a rate dramatically less than the current rate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: People tender for everything now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: It is still costing the State far more than it should. I am speaking as an ordinary person. It is still the case that hundreds of thousands of euro are going on these cases.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Breen is in place to help the State reduce the costs.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I wish to put a question to Mr. Corrigan. Representatives from the troika were here several times and I imagine Mr. Corrigan met them. Now, it appears to be illegal for the State to try to get a competitive annual rate for legal services from a barrister. This was one of the protected professions which escaped the troika for three years. It looks as if since they got out of the clutches...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: The legal profession talked them out of it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: In many cases liability is admitted. The injuries board is a separate organisation. The chairperson of the injuries board made a remark that if an organisation like the injuries board took over these cases it would save the State a good deal of money rather than the agency doing that work. She stated that one of the reasons for this was that the board deals with cases in 7.2 months whereas...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Have they provided any good suggestions?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: When does Mr. Breen's office have sight of an original medical report file, as, for example, in the Gaffney case? When does his office have sight of the original medical report as written by the hospital staff? How long does it take for the file to come to his office?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: The most disturbing aspect is that according to the Comptroller and Auditor General, 40% of all the claims received had not already been notified to the agency as being adverse incidents. Mr. Breen referred to early disclosure but that is not working if, in 40% of the cases that land on his desk, his agency has no advance knowledge of them. Is that a correct presumption? We are miles away...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: During 2013 the State Claims Agency indicated that it had no standard management report of such consolidated data and the requested information would take a considerable amount of time to assemble. This is stated in paragraph 29.61 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Does the agency deal with hospitals directly rather than through the HSE?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: And private hospitals.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Breen to forward it to the committee and to give a breakdown of the cases that went to court or were settled.

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