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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: That was not my question. Mr. Moran said he does not deal with the policy but in a sense the Department has made judgments in terms of the use of phrases such as: "Key economic indicators point to continued solid growth". He also said: "I am greatly encouraged by the robust pace of the recovery". In addition, he referred to "a balanced and equitable economy". I could name any amount of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: That is okay, but when I look at the Department's five-page document certain things are picked out. I accept that employment is up and that must be welcomed, but it is a discussion for another day as to what type of employment is up, for example, zero-hours contracts and work involving precarious hours. Mr. Moran presents some figures by way of backup for the thriving economy and his view...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: I have made it easy for the officials by mentioning the world "policy". I take it back. I mean it in the sense of it being an indicator.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: Mr. Moran referred to employment and other indicators. I am asking about housing and health as indicators. Are they indicators of a thriving economy?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: I am putting the question to Mr. Moran specifically and understand he cannot comment on policy. However, the Department of Finance's paper refers to certain indicators while ignoring others. That is what I am taking exception to, although that might be too strong a word to use, but that is what I am highlighting. The paper refers to being greatly encouraged by the robust pace of the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: As an indicator, does that cause the Department of Finance concern?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: They are not included in the paper or the opening statement. The Department of Finance did not put them down as indicators that the housing problem was concerning.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: I heard what Mr. Moran said and I am commenting on it. There was no reference to the lack of capacity in hospitals that inhibited a healthy society and how, in turn, it contributed to a thriving economy. They are all indicators. Let us come back to specific questions about the national debt, to which the Comptroller and Auditor General referred. My colleague also went through it, as did...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: The Department of Finance did not discover it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: The Department of Finance did not alert anyone to what had come from the Central Statics Office and EUROSTAT.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: What was the national debt in 2008?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: I will relay what the Comptroller and Auditor General told us. As a proportion of GDP, the general Government debt rose from 42% in 2008 to 120% in 2012 and 2013. In 2008 it was almost one third of what it was in 2012 and 2013. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: It was 25% in 2007.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: It was even less.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: Okay, but I am not beholden to figures. The national debt had no role in the crisis that ensued in recent years. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: Will the officials explain to me in plain English how it became 120% of GDP? Will they include the role of banks and borrowing in that regard? Will they, please, clarify it simply for me because I am not an economist?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: I understand. What went into the banks?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: A total of €64 billion was put straight into the banks to bail them out. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: Now we are talking about AIB and shares. According to the rules, we cannot use the money from selling the shares because we treat it as cash. Is that it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2015
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 18 - Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
Finance Accounts 2015
(6 Jul 2017)

Catherine Connolly: Let us consider one example. We will not mention the IRBC because we do not have time to go into the matter, but let us consider AIB. We bailed out the banks. We bailed out AIB to the tune of 100%. According to the mad rules with which we must comply, we cannot use the money we have just received from the sale of the shares in AIB to help the economy in any way or to reduce the number of...

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