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Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: For the total non-pay cost figure, we are going back to the Department's figure.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: That is what I am trying to get at. It is the figure for non-pay costs. The Department believes the way it is calculated is excessive.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Perhaps we should change the formula. There is €10 million in the difference. We may be noting great savings, but the Departments may believe them to be over-estimated by 40%, but they are not telling anyone. The savings are not real.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: This is the Committee of Public Accounts. Is there a problem with how we are calculating non-pay costs under the Croke Park agreement and does the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine agree with the process? Independent consultants have indicated that they understand why the Department thinks this way. We must look again at how we are calculating savings. It is a very basic process.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: The figure is €10 million.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: It is a significant figure.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I am interested in non-pay costs and how they are calculated. There is an interesting discrepancy in the process which has not been addressed but should be.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I would like to continue in the area of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Perhaps I might come back in after he has contributed.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I realise Mr. Fitzpatrick has to leave. I have a quick question relating to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I do not mean to pick on that Department but it is project No. 1 in the Grant Thornton report and I have not got any further, so all my questions are initially about that Department. A sum of €30 million annually in savings are expected, along with a...

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: That is a saving in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food because the staff no longer work for it. It is reflected as a saving for the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Are we saying it is a saving in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when the person is going to a different Department or a different part of the public sector and being paid a salary there? While it looks like a saving in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, it is not an actual saving in the total pay bill. There is a double count taking place.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: I would like to know if the saving of €30 million means people coming off that Department's pay bill and then popping up somewhere else.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Mr. Fitzpatrick does not think the person would pop up somewhere else and it would still be counted as a saving.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Does the headline take into account that people will move from a Department and it might be counted as a saving there, but it is not a saving because they have moved?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: On the total figures, we have that reduction in pay between 2009 and 2012 of approximately €3 billion.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: What will it be by 2015?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: Is the €3.1 billion net of pension?

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: The gross figure for each year is given in the top line of the table.

Public Accounts Committee: Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with Implementation Body (11 Oct 2012)

Eoghan Murphy: It appears we are not expecting a significant change between 2012 and 2015.

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